Tarot art commission as work made for hire?

ematuskey

Hanna: totally. I wanted to get a good number of cards figured out first (have most of the major and one of the minor suits more-or-less done) so that if I got some momentum on the art front, I'd be able to get a lot done quickly. But before I even commission a concept sketch, I want to make sure my ducks are in a row regarding rights etc. And I'll want a couple scenarios when I apply for funding, I'm sure (one where I purchase full rights, one where I get a break in exchange for royalties, etc).

That's not a bad idea about the split of profit opportunities. Or I could arrange for artists to get a share of the profits from all image-related products (decks, calendars, etc).
 

shadowdancer

I can see your concerns, and it is indeed a tough one.

I was fortunate, in as much when I created my deck on paper, I wanted the artist to be a partner in the project. I knew hiring in an artist, paying for artwork etc would be astronomic, but that also came with a risk they would not be emotionally in tune with the deck.

Ravenswing (Steve) came on board with the Tarot of Innocence, and being a partner from day one he has become one with the deck as much as I have. We really believe in the creatures and creation and are soooo on the same wavelength. I know of a creator who did hire in an artist and they did not have the same rapport going. She gave the impression although the finished product was good, she had to direct on absolutely everything as they did not offer input. Steve's input has been invaluable, and on more than one occasion has led to an improvement over the original image I had in mind.

Would you consider that as a possble route? Finding an artist who would go into partnership? It is not easy I know and it took me 4 years but it has been worth it so far. (I guess I will know for sure when it is finished... :D :D ) Only joking Steve. You know you have given it life and some. We have almost become like parents to the deck and beings, as opposed to me being their creator and someone drawing them out with no emotional attachment.

Davina
 

ematuskey

Thanks for sharing your experience, Davina! Finding a partner artist does sound like an awesome way to go, but it also sounds like you were very fortunate in who you found!

My own quandry is that I want to be a professional, and treat the artists like professionals--I have artist friends who are constantly badgered for free samples, or work on future earnings, etc, and they hate it. But until I win the lottery, commissioning 78 unique pieces of art is a financially daunting prospect, as I'm sure you know. There's also the fear that if I find an artist and share my ideas with them, they can go ahead and do the deck without me. Which is a little paranoid, I know.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you handle the business side of your arrangement? You have the ideas, the two of you collaborate on how to make it a reality, and he makes the art, right? Is he working only for love of the deck and the promise of future royalties, or do you pay him something as you go? Sorry if that's intrusive, I'm just curious to see what scenarios work for people. :)
 

gregory

ematuskey said:
Gregory: the idea is to commission original art, not purchase existing art.
I realise that - but even so - especially after what happened to Tricia.

A thought. Ask Lo Scarabeo how they operate. They commission the art for their decks....

Partnership sounds like the ideal way to go....
 

ematuskey

What happened to Tricia?
 

gregory

*looking for thread....*

She did the Mythic. The publisher decided to bring out a "new improved" (NOT) version, using her original ideas but tarted up - read "refined" - and not in a good way - by another artist (who does good work as a rule; this was a crap brief.) They didn't even TELL her; she found out when people here started to hear about it.

ETA HERE is the thread where it was discussed.....

and here is the post in that thread where Tricia first heard about it. The new version is a travesty. Which is why - as an artist - I would be hellishly careful about what I agreed to. But I'm not, and very good luck to you !

There is also this thread which in her disgust, she started, about copyright.
 

shadowdancer

First up, we both love the project. It is from the heart from both of us. Steve had been let down with a previous project (something I will not go into) which was blow for him, as he had the fire in him to create a deck. I guess the timing was right for both of us and it was through AT we got in contact and discussed the possibilities for this deck. If you read our thread on this creation forum (look up Tarot of Innocence) you will see the rapport and energy we both have. Steve also explains why he chose to come on board. What makes it even more incredible is the fact he is in the US and I am in NZ. I know a similar partnership occurred with the Templar tarot. The creator of the book and the artist of the deck have not met or spoken to each other yet the partnership was there and how!

I think one thing you would have to be aware of if you did have an artist willing to come on board as a partner is making sure they do not carry all the costs of materials. It was easy for me, as all I needed was a computer and a word program :) Steve has the real issues of paper, pencils, mediums etc. I saw this as a true partnership and immediately offered to share those costs. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this information, but I really hope it can help you on your path. I know exactly where you are at, and your frustrations that go alongside as I was there myself November 2004.

We will be getting to the stage where we have a cross section to send to publishers, along with examples of what we have for the accompanying book. The book is something I have focussed on (not having any artistic talent, that is Steve's domain :D ) and it will hopefully be one that is talked ab out as being a valuable asset to the deck. Steve will also have input from the artist's viewpoint which will add yet another dimension to how things came about, but they all started with my description of each card I had stored on my computer for a very long time.

Here is the link to what we have to date regarding the deck:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=114638

Davina
 

barafubuki

gah!! im appalled! D:

the "new mythic tarot" looks horrendous to the beautiful drawings of the original. why they hell would they make a new version that's so crap...it totally beats me.

i really feel sorry for the artist who got ripped off too, id be crying... :(

ematuskey, im an artist whose interest is piqued, but i would not be interested in taking the route of pay-per-card. a partnership in royalties and...only when needed, an equal say in how the cards appear is probably the best way to go.

artists are really creative-types of people, and as far as the artists i drew with, they dread commission work that they aren't passionate about. they are usually much more happy doing things in their style/vision.

that isnt to say that they cant take direction, but id be really careful about how much control you want if you dont want to shuck out tons of bucks.

id love to show you some samples of my work, and you can see if it is the style of art you'd like to see the deck go...but perhaps a private message would be better...

...ill tell you upfront that im a portrait artist, and i dont really like to do much else than draw people's faces...
 

baba-prague

I hope it will be helpful just to say here that "work for hire" does not depend on the type of work - a tarot deck, an advertisement, a 3-d product, a painting - it makes no difference. Work for hire applies when the artist/designer is either employed by the person who will own the work (for example, every design agency employs their designers under "work for hire" - the agency owns the work, not the designer) or is commissioned to do the piece/s at a set price, which is understood to include all rights. In other words, the artist/designer has to be paid by the commissioner or employer in a work for hire arrangement.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=work+for+hire (I'm teasing).

As several people here have said, it's normally very expensive to buy 78 images, and all rights, from a professional artist. If you use an amateur artist then unfortunately, depending on how it turns out of course, it's generally much less likely to be published. In recent years this has become more true than it used to be as the market for tarot has become more competitive.

Even if a professional artist agreed to work for $100 a piece - which frankly would be an unusually low fee, I think several times that would be more realistic - then you're looking at around $8000 as the very lowest bare minimum assuming you'll need a card back, a title card, etc. In reality, to get the rights to decent, publishable images you're likely to pay much, much more. This is why it's usually only viable if 1. the deck is likely to be highly commercial and sell many thousands or 2. you employ someone who illustrates fast - which often means a comic-book artist or cartoonist.

Anyway, good luck with it. I hope you find the person you're looking for - but please don't expect professional artists to be queuing up to do a job like this. 78 images is a couple of years output for many people.
 

Chanel

Here's my take for what it's worth :)

On the deck I'm creating. I am the creator and designer. My artist was contracted to draw my designs. We do have a contract between us and an agreement of payment. It's actually a percentage of profit.

It does not make sense that I am buying my own artwork. I do the sketchwork, the design, and created it. I do believe artists should have their recognition. But, that doesn't mean that they retain rights.. not if it's a work for hire.

When I was looking for artists.. there were many that tried to tell me it was illegal for me to retain rights and some wanted over $120k for drawing my designs. The artist that I am working with is someone that I know very intimately.. I always wanted him to do the project, and he agreed because we are so close. I'm a lucky that way.

There are artists out there who understand what work for hire means, though. Best advice.. get a contract signed between the two of you that clearly lays out the payment and ownership rights. I would not suggest paying by the hour, more like paying per piece.

If you have a hard time finding someone to do the artwork at a reasonable price, why not check with local colleges or those artists that need the professional break :)


I have to agree with BABA.. look for comic book artists, cartoonists, or digital artists etc.. someone who works fast. My artist is one of those and we can work through a set of cards at a time. We are nearly finished and one month shy of a year from starting.


I do wish you all the luck in finding the right person! :)