Mixed feelings about the Thoth

Barleywine

Welcome back, I remember you from before I went delurking.

A suitable analogy might be that other decks are like television shows - this one a child's cartoon, this a cooking and homemaking show, that a soap opera, the other a period drama. But the Thoth is life itself, with no aesthetic theme or pretence, and most especially no simplification. It is what it is and perhaps, artistically and visually it's a bit whiplash-inducing but at the end of the day, it is exactly what it needed to be. That uncompromising truth is a testament to the faith the creators had in their vision and in each other, I think.

That first sentence made me chuckle because it's a picture-perfect description of the POMO (Post-Modern) Tarot (well, it's called tarot, anyway). It gets a check-mark in almost every category (and in every category if 1980s kitsch is your "period.") It even has a suit called TVs :).

Ah, yes, the Thoth - "assault with a deadly weapon."

A few thoughts on individual cards: I agree with the poster who said that the Disks courts are particularly strong - they're astonishing. That Knight is so overwhelmingly evocative, and the Princess...doesn't she just steal the whole show? But I think the Swords Courts are getting short shrift here - the Princess is leaping upwards, straining away from gravity (she is, after all, Air of Earth), reckless and unthinking and instinctive. The Prince is savage and destructive, and the greatest casualty of his death wish is himself...and perhaps his ego. He teaches us a lesson in courage. The Queen - I don't see a severed head! I see a severed mask, as she combines the intuitive power of Water with the truth-seeking excision of Air. And the Knight, speeding arrow of directed passionate thought, knowing exactly where he is going...who could be but thrilled to go along for that ride?

I believe our discussion was about the visceral impact - or not - of the artwork itself. The Sword courts always seemed a bit "thin" to me artistically (as befits Air?) but that in no way compromises the inspiring lucidity of the imagery. I agree with you completely on that. (BTW, in the BoT Crowley called it a "severed head" but my thought was always that it looks like a mask, or maybe a deflated - "popped" - head from that terrible old movie, "Scanners.")

Yes, it is definitely the best deck I've used. I barely ever use any other now, no matter how I love them for their art or tactility or sentimental value. It's all about the Thoth.

Amen to that!
 

dancing_moon

I think Thoth Tarot art is that it is not about some mundane real objects we see in real life daily, but they were abstract depiction of the mind and consciousness of Crowley and Lady Harris wrapped in deep philosophical system underneath, which makes it more abstract and daunting.

That's a very good description of the deck, foolMoon. :) And you're right, it can seem disturbing at times and stir up some pretty uncomfortable skeletons, but I think this particular deck has just the right amount of 'healthy disturbing', just enough to make one pause and examine their mind.

You know, I was thinking, I have three versions of the Thoth, two from the very early '70s and one from 1983, and they're all slightly different in their color tones. In the earliest deck, the colors are a bit "dusky" but the Empress is very rich-looking and not washed out like in the 1983. US Games made a big deal about the colors of the 1983 deck being "correct" to the original paintings, but I didn't find that an entirely good thing. I haven't seen any of the more recent editions, but I may be buying a new standard-size one soon since my 1983 - which I use the most - is starting to feel a bit soft to the touch.

Thanks for your further observations! It can be a bit of an issue, the way hues and shades change from printing to printing. :( Though usually not enough to completely spoil a deck for me, fortunately.

Uh oh! The Queen of Swords is my wife's long-time significator card <looks over shoulder in alarm>

Crowley's commentary on the Queen of Swords is interesting: he equates the severed head with "the liberation of the mind," with the QoS as the "midwife." (Not chilling once you get past the visual.) If it wasn't an abstract conceptual device, Crowley would probably have had gouts of blood coming out of it!

Ah, that severed head too. :joke: It troubled me a little, but this explanation really makes sense to me. Study, study and then study a bit more. :p

I'm delurking after a very, very long time away from the cards and from AT. I've been lurkerising in the Thoth forum for a couple of weeks now, and reading all your conversations and remembering old faces and getting to "know" new ones. (Aeon, could it be?? Are you...softening? LOL)

I wanted to respond to these comments as they describe how I felt about the deck and how I continue to feel even now. I've got rather an extensive collection of Tarot and oracle decks and the Thoth is unique among them in that when I saddle up to it, I'm deadly serious. There's no overall "feeling" from the deck; it's all business. Even individual cards don't elicit feelings so much as the intellectual or perhaps psycho-spiritual echo or telling of the appropriate feeling.

A suitable analogy might be that other decks are like television shows - this one a child's cartoon, this a cooking and homemaking show, that a soap opera, the other a period drama. But the Thoth is life itself, with no aesthetic theme or pretence, and most especially no simplification. It is what it is and perhaps, artistically and visually it's a bit whiplash-inducing but at the end of the day, it is exactly what it needed to be. That uncompromising truth is a testament to the faith the creators had in their vision and in each other, I think.

A few thoughts on individual cards: I agree with the poster who said that the Disks courts are particularly strong - they're astonishing. That Knight is so overwhelmingly evocative, and the Princess...doesn't she just steal the whole show? But I think the Swords Courts are getting short shrift here - the Princess is leaping upwards, straining away from gravity (she is, after all, Air of Earth), reckless and unthinking and instinctive. The Prince is savage and destructive, and the greatest casualty of his death wish is himself...and perhaps his ego. He teaches us a lesson in courage. The Queen - I don't see a severed head! I see a severed mask, as she combines the intuitive power of Water with the truth-seeking excision of Air. And the Knight, speeding arrow of directed passionate thought, knowing exactly where he is going...who could be but thrilled to go along for that ride?

The Hermit is possibly my favourite card in the deck and I suspect its strength derives from the creators' strong identification with its symbolism, themes and message. Art is deeply fascinating and, distinct from other decks, visceral, approachable and very sensual. And Death...what a fabulous piece of artwork. So much mythology, collective unconscious, and science all bound up in what is ultimately a fantastic painting in its own right.

The 3 and 4 of Disks, the 6 of Swords, the Ace, 7 and 8 of Cups and the Ace of Wands are also particularly strong. All evoke their names and messages clearly but also meet the viewer halfway, not making you do all the work like some of the other Minors do.

Yes, it is definitely the best deck I've used. I barely ever use any other now, no matter how I love them for their art or tactility or sentimental value. It's all about the Thoth.

Thanks for the extensive post! :thumbsup: It's interesting how it's 'all business' for you. I know the feeling, but I can also see so much more 'feeling' of the cards on my part, among other things. :D
 

dancing_moon

I believe our discussion was about the visceral impact - or not - of the artwork itself. The Sword courts always seemed a bit "thin" to me artistically (as befits Air?) but that in no way compromises the inspiring lucidity of the imagery. I agree with you completely on that. (BTW, in the BoT Crowley called it a "severed head" but my thought was always that it looks like a mask, or maybe a deflated - "popped" - head from that terrible old movie, "Scanners.")

One of the benefits of this thread has been that I've been looking through the cards more attentively. :joke: And I can see that the Courts are actually very proper to their suits. In particular, the Swords are perfectly 'airy' and light, albeit somewhat elusive, which is rather fitting again.

I guess my only problem that's left as of today is the actual depiction of human bodies (and I don't mean nudity here :D). It struck me that all the human figures in this deck look rather like mannequins or androids - quite in the spirit of the overall futuristic look of the deck. Was it the thing that kept disturbing me?.. :bugeyed:
 

Zephyros

I don't think it's only you. One card I used to have a problem with was the Prince of Swords. It looked out of place, unfinished and stylistically different from the others. It took me a while to appreciate that the airy and unfocused qualities were essential to his character. He was supposed to be like that.

This discovery led to increased appreciation of all the Courts, as the style and attitude of each one is highly symbolic and conveys their attributes. In a sense they really are mannequins, meant to put forward certain ideas. This can actually help, as you need to pay more attention to those elements in them rather than the expressions on their faces or something like that.

The Queen of Swords, for example, has "killed" her husband in the sense that the male thrust of the idea has spent itself in her and has thus "died," Chochma creating Binah as it travels to its end-point. She severs the thought from its force and incubates it. This would lead to a very cereberal process, or person.
 

dancing_moon

Thanks for sharing, closrapexa! Thanks to your comments I'm coming to appreciate these amazing cards more and more, and the artistic peculiarities don't bother me so much any longer. :)

It's curious to note that the Knight of Swords never really troubled me, it's the Pentacle Courts that I had biggest problems with. However, looking through them again today, I think that it could be due, at least partly, to their expressive and obvious 'Earthiness' - a quality I've always had problems with, both in Tarot and life. :D This deck does seem to help uncover those subconscious biases - a quality that's very precious to me. :thumbsup:

And yes, I can absolutely see now how being 'mannequin-ish' can help the reader focus on the ideas expressed in the cards rather than the person/personality shown in the card. Thanks for pointing that out!
 

dancing_moon

Got my Thoth today, and, of course, I had to open it as soon as possible. :rolleyes: And I must say I'm loving what I've seen so far.

I got the Lo Scarabeo version, so the images are slightly bigger than the standard edition, and the colors are more on the muted side. Don't know if I've reached the necessary saturation through multiple views, or if the larger size is more complimentary to the images (or both), but I find the human figures much more inspiring than before. :thumbsup: I hope to have some time this weekend to play with them, and I think it's the beginning of an exciting journey. :D
 

Aeon418

I got the Lo Scarabeo version
Lo Scarabeo version? In that case I assume you mean the Etteilla Thoth? If so you might need a different subforum. This subforum is dedicated to the Crowley-Harris Thoth Tarot. The Etteilla is a completely different deck.
 

dancing_moon

Lo Scarabeo version? In that case I assume you mean the Etteilla Thoth? If so you might need a different subforum. This subforum is dedicated to the Crowley-Harris Thoth Tarot. The Etteilla is a completely different deck.

No, not at all, and I do know the difference. :D The deck I got yesterday is this one.
 

Tanga

Whoops! - I've not much time to gabble on...
Very quickly.

I've always liked Frieda's art - but never found I've been able to use the deck - due to my RWS love of people in the minor pips. This is changing now... it's somehow making more sense to me. I've just been to a lecture about Lady Frieda Harris last night, at my favourite esoteric bookshop. Remarkable lady :) (Treadwells bookshop in Bloomsbury, London).
Five years of painting during the hardship of war - with a constant stormy relationship with Crowley - all by letter!.
- On sale they had the latest print (?) that comes in a green box and has wider than what I'd consider "standard size" cards.
The borders are a watery green - Wow. Makes quite some difference to softening all of Frieda's "rrrhaaa factor" expression (she was a rrrhaa factor lady - a suffregette who retired to a houseboat in India, when widowed). I was tempted... But I already have 3 Thoths - Lol.
A pocket version, and two well used standard size that I found at the market.
... maybe later.

The Queen of Pentacles has always entranced me. She looks EVEN BETTER with that green border... :joke:
And Death from this deck - is my favourite Death of all.


...One card I used to have a problem with was the Prince of Swords. It looked out of place, unfinished and stylistically different from the others. It took me a while to appreciate that the airy and unfocused qualities were essential to his character. He was supposed to be like that.

This discovery led to increased appreciation of all the Courts, as the style and attitude of each one is highly symbolic and conveys their attributes. In a sense they really are mannequins, meant to put forward certain ideas. This can actually help, as you need to pay more attention to those elements in them rather than the expressions on their faces or something like that.

The Queen of Swords, for example, has "killed" her husband in the sense that the male thrust of the idea has spent itself in her and has thus "died," Chochma creating Binah as it travels to its end-point. She severs the thought from its force and incubates it. This would lead to a very cereberal process, or person.

I've had exactly the same experience with the Prince of Swords.
Thanks for the bumph about Queenie of Swords - food for my thought. :)

...must whizz off...