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venicebard  venicebard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
"... (Cupids, Goats, Harps and Millstones) made in 1544 by Christian Wechel of Paris, "
Millstones are round, right? (Even today, money is called 'bread'.) Put the other three together and you have either 10 or 55 (depending on how you look at it) satyrs, going around seducing all the women of the land like KRShNA!
Quote:
Cupids (or better: small funny men) were also in the fragmented deck of the Master of the Bandelore (second half of 15th century), which was (and still is, as it seems) constantly overlooked by standard Playing Card History.

http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/bandalore/index.html
Interesting how the bow in the man's hand (bottom row, 2nd card) is a motif repeated in actual cups on other cards.
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Huck  Huck is offline
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Hi Marco,

things develop with the time.

We've published ... (please read, it's important) ..

http://trionfi.com/0/mi/21/

.. something to an author with the name Jan van den Berghe, who in 1431 wrote a playing card book (moralization in relation to laws, by this quoting bible, Seneca and a Latin author with the name Valerius Maximus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerius_Maximus

Well, you, ca. 1 1/2 years ago, wrote the following in the Sola-Busca-thread:


############
"Paulus Orosius: Historiarum Adversum Paganos

From http://www.attalus.org/latin/orosius.html
Quote:
In 410 A.D. the Goths captured the city of Rome - an event which made a profound impression on writers of the time. Pagan writers were quick to blame the disaster on the spread of Christianity: the old gods no longer protected the city.

In response to these accusations, Augustine wrote his City of God; and at the same time he asked Orosius, a Spanish presbyter, to write a companion work, which would show that similar disasters had afflicted mankind since the earliest times. In fulfilling this request, Orosius produced the longest surviving summary of the whole range of ancient Roman history, covering over eleven centuries from before the foundation of the city up until Orosius' own time.


I found that books 4, 5 and 6 of this ancient work refer to 18 of the majors of the Sola Busca deck. For the 4 missing majors, I think the interpretation suggested by Michael J Hurst can be accepted. I also follow the spelling corrections that Hurst and Tea suggest for Ipeo/Lenpio. Here are possible sources for all of the majors (book numbers refer to Orosius):

0. Mato - Tarot
I. Panfilio - Boccaccio's Decameron
II. Postumio - "POSTUMIUS" Book 5
III. Lenpio - "LEPIDUS"? Book 5
IIII. Mario - "MARIUS" Book 5
V. Catulo - "CATULUS" Book 5
VI. Sesto - "SEXTUS" (Sextus Pompeius) Book 6
VII. Deo Tauro - "DEIOTARUS" Book 6
VIII. Nerone - "NERONE" Book 4
VIIII. Falco - "FLACCUS" Book 5
X. Venturio - "VETURIUS" Book 5
XI. Tulio - "CICERO" Book 6
XII. Carbone - "CARBO" Book 5
XIII. Catone - "CATO" Book 5
XIIII. Bocho - "BOCCHUS" Book 5
XV. Metelo - "METELLUS" Book 5
XVI. Olivo - "LIUIO" Book 4 (Livio: the online text always has "u" for lowercase "v")
XVII. Ipeo - "SCIPIO"? Book 5
XVIII. Lentulo - "LENTULUS" Book 5
XVIIII. Sabino - "SABINUS" Book 6
XX. Nenbroto - "NIMROD" Bible (Genesis)
XXI. Nabuchodenasor - "NEBUCHADNEZZAR" Bible (Daniel )

A check for the 12 Book 5 references can be made by simply pasting this string into Google:
lepidus flaccus scipio marius cato carbo lentulus metellus veturius bocchus postumius catulus

Marco"
############


There you state or indicate, that Paulo Orosius (ca. 400 AD) might be the
source for the Sola-Busca-Tarocchi composition, at least for a part of it.

Now we have another name with the text of Jan van den Berghe: Valerius Maximus, who ...

"In his preface he intimates that his work is intended as a commonplace book of historical anecdotes for use in the schools of rhetoric, where the pupils were trained in the art of embellishing speeches by references to history. According to the manuscripts, its title is Nine Books of Memorable Deeds and Sayings. The stories are loosely and irregularly arranged, each book being divided into sections, and each section bearing as its title the topic, most commonly some virtue or vice, or some merit or demerit, which the stories in the section are intended to illustrate."

Is it possible, that the Sola-Busca-characters were also in Valerius Maximus' text? Beside the figure of Nero, who obvious should be "too late"?

Our suspicion: Jan van den Berghe's text was printed ... possibly an edition reached Italy. Might he have inspired the Sola-Busca-card-producer?
Venice was full of German printers. The Sola-Busca is said to be from Venice

When you (as in this thread) see iconographical parallels between Master PW's work and Sola-Busca and we think cause other reasons, that there was a context between Jan van den Berghe and Master PW, and there is (possibly) also an assumable relationship between Jan van den Berghe and Sola-Busca Tarocchi ... what does this mean?

The nameless Master PW is believed to have been born in Cologne, but he was wandering a longer time and reached Salzburg, Passau and possibly Nurremberg .... why shouldn't he have been not also attracted by Venice as the city with the most interesting printing progress as a learning copperplate engraver?
Master PW returned to Cologne in 1500.
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DoctorArcanus  DoctorArcanus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
Is it possible, that the Sola-Busca-characters were also in Valerius Maximus' text? Beside the figure of Nero, who obvious should be "too late"?

Our suspicion: Jan van den Berghe's text was printed ... possibly an edition reached Italy. Might he have inspired the Sola-Busca-card-producer?
Venice was full of German printers. The Sola-Busca is said to be from Venice
Thank you Huck!
The North-East of Italy was indeed culturally very close to German speaking countries. For instance, Renaissance painters from Ferrara were often close in style to German art of the time.

I am curious to learn more about Valerius Maximus and Jan van den Berghe. More interestings things to study!

Marco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
There you state or indicate, that Paulo Orosius (ca. 400 AD) might be the
source for the Sola-Busca-Tarocchi composition, at least for a part of it.

Now we have another name with the text of Jan van den Berghe: Valerius Maximus, who ...

Is it possible, that the Sola-Busca-characters were also in Valerius Maximus' text? Beside the figure of Nero, who obvious should be "too late"?
I don't know if this was followed up on -- but yes, 18 of them, with the same suggested spelling corrections as per Orosius text, and including Nero*, are in Valerius Maximus:

https://archive.org/stream/valeriima...ogoog_djvu.txt

The (Dutch) text of "Dat kaetspel ghemoralizeert" by Jan van den Berghe is available as pdf file from here:

http://www.dbnl.org/titels/titel.php?id=berg050jaro01

Kwaw

* Nero the consul:

The consul Claudius Nero, who made the unequalled march which deceived Hannibal and deceived Hasdrubal, thereby accomplishing an achievement almost unrivaled in military annals. The first intelligence of his return, to Hannibal, was the sight of Hasdrubal's head thrown into his camp. When Hannibal saw this, he exclaimed, with a sigh, that 'Rome would now be the mistress of the world.' To this victory of Claudius Nero's it might be owing that his imperial namesake reigned at all. But the infamy of the one has eclipsed the glory of the other. When the name of Claudius Nero is heard, who thinks of the consul? But such are human things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Metaurus
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