SweetIsTheTruth
billv said:Personally I like most of the ideas presented around Kaballistic thought, but not the idea that this is really just a system based on old biblical texts or myth.
I don't think the Qaballah is a system based on old biblical texts. For instance, the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament differs markedly from what the Christians teach about the Old Testament. Whether you define 'biblical' from a Jewish or Christian standpoint would impact your views greatly.
As far as myth, I could never discount anything simply because it is myth. There is a reason the most popular movies involve some nobody guy saving the day and getting the girl in the last few minutes. We all like heroes and the myth of the hero is exceedingly powerful to us.
billv said:I realize that the Kaballah and it's varients are from a Jewish heritage, but do they presuppose a belief in YHVH?
Define YHVH however you choose. Call it Jehovah or call it Amun. The principle is the same.
billv said:I know there are references to many angelic and elemental spirits as well. Are these references just allegorical, to personify aspects of mind, or are they to be taken as objective, existing entities?
The same debate rages on endlessly in pagan circles. Are the dieties part of our psyche or do they exist separately outside of ourselves? Why do you limit yourself to only two choices, being either allegory or literal existence? It sounds like you are bogged down in dualistic thinking which may well offer you wholly false choices. Can you escape these dualistic possibilities and jump into polyvalent logic and thereby have 3 choices;
1. deities are allegory and don't exist
2. deities do exist
2. 1 & 2 are both true and not true at the same time
billv said:For example, in Robert Wang's book he talks about "suspending disbelief" when it comes to these things in his book, yet later he seems entrenched in the ideas surrounding deities, archangels, etc...
Perhaps it would be better to drop all ideas of gods, goddesses, archangels, etc., from your own mind. Would seeing them as powers, energy currents or archetypes sit better with you? See them however you need to see them to make it fit for you.
billv said:I'm really having a difficult time with this as I am agnostic with a strong lean toward outright atheism.
Then you are exactly as you need to be. It might be fun to walk both sides of the issue at the same time, ie, believe in deities at the same time you believe in no deities. Interpret what you read from both standpoints simultaneously.
billv said:Yet, I still see value in the system from a psychological/self-development perspective.
Hmmmmm, you might find the book "Personality, Divination and the Tarot," by Carl Sargent to be interesting. He interprets the cards of the deck strictly from a psychological standpoint, using the Marseilles deck. It's very easy to see how this is possible. Our subconscious does not speak in words nor rationally. It speaks in pictures, archetypes & dreams that often don't make sense from a rational standpoint on the face of it. We might find ourselves walking down a street naked in a dream. Underneath that, we might also fear we are exposing too much of ourselves in some area of our waking life. Rational logic may be in a dream, but might not be obvious on the surface of the dream.
billv said:I also remember Alistair Crowley talking about how it is best to use the religion you grew up with as the basis for working in magickal endeavors, even if you had renounced it's dogma/beliefs because it provides a model for study. This is confusing to me. Do you have to believe in God to be successful in Kaballistic/Qabalalistic studies?
I have the utmost respect for Crowley. However, those who have negative experiences with their religion of origin might best not use that religion for study. I don't personally believe you must believe in dieties to be successful or learn the Qaballah.
Crowley's Devil shows a huge penis. The letter associated with it is 'ayin', meaning eye. The reference is to the eye of the penis. The symbol of Crowley's 15th trump is of a power or energy current that wishes to unite/mate with everything, much like a horny goat. I don't claim to understand it fully. However, I do feel I can easily grasp the concept expressed in the card. I have been horny before. It might even make me think of a mote in one's eye. Perhaps someone in an abusive relationship stays in the relationship because they truly see themselves as deserving abuse. The mote in their eye of deserving the abuse keeps them chained to the other person in the relationship, much like people are shown in chains on the 15th trump in many decks. Being willing to unite/mate with everything can indeed be a dark thing, if you lack the knowledge or care so little to chain yourself to an abuser. Being willing to unite/mate with everything could also be a light and not dark thing, if you choose to NOT unite/mate with abusive people. Perhaps being willing to unite/mate with everything could also be a neutral thing. Maybe you and a friend are just horny and mutually agree to address it for just one night. I don't claim any sentence in this paragraph represents any understanding of Qaballah, deities, ayin, the 15th trump or anything else. Many might view what I have written as pure bunk. I have clearly leaped from the ayin of the penis to mote in one's eye, which is not even the same type of eye. This is how I presently see, interpret and understand 'ayin' at this time, whether correct or not.
Likewise, the Justice trump is Lamed, or the ox-goad. The ox-goad was used to keep animals walking a straight line when tilling the fields. Likewise, the Justice trump, representing facing the consequences of one's actions, is an ox-goad within itself. If I run away at the first sign of conflict, then my action of running away will teach others certain subjects are not up for discussion or else I will run away. In seeing that my action of running away cuts off & limits communication in my relationships, and therefore, weakens my relationships, the consequences of the running away from conflict will serve to steer me, or goad the ox that is me, in a direction other than running away. Of course, I must first be able to see the action of running away is causing a breakdown in communication. If I have a mote in my ayin that prevents me from seeing running from conflict leads to breakdown in communication, I won't get the lesson of the ox-goad. Were that the case, I would clearly have chosen 'flight' in the false dichotomy of 'fight or flight' and elevated 'flight' to the level of a God. Truly in such a case, I would be treating the 'flight' response as a God, obeying the urge to flight as a first course of action in many, if not all, cases. If you were constructing your own Qabalistic tree, what would you name the urges to 'fight or flight?" Would they be gods, angels, demons or would they be something in between? Maybe we could name them the Leaver and the Soldier or the Scaredy-Cat and the Boxer. What would they look like to you? Where would you place them on your Tree?
Also, you might wish to look into other religions outside of Judaism or Christianity in your pursuit of Qaballah. If you are familiar with Crowley, his book "777" will be helpful in this. I am learning/interpreting Qaballah from the religious standpoint of the ancient Egyptians. For me, Amun is JHVH, in the sense of being 'the hidden one" (as in zero not four). This allows me to pursue the study without any biases I might have picked up being raised in Christianity. Many of the gods of the ancient Egyptians were personified concepts, such as Thoth=thought & Ma'at (Justice trump)=Justice, underlying order, doing what is right, etc. I am not saying adopting the religion of the ancient Egyptians will solve this for you. What I am saying is, understanding religions outside of Judaism or Christianity, then superimposing that understanding onto the Qaballah, might allow you to proceed without getting bogged down in your religion of origin. Jesus and Osiris both died and were resurrected. Isis was as much of a personal savior as Jesus was. Jesus, Isis and Kwan-Yin were all known as deities of compassion. See the common archetypes in the underlying myths and carry on. Ultimately, I don't know that it will matter whether you view them as allegorical, real or something else entirely.