Marseilles Seekers Thread (First Exercise)

EnriqueEnriquez

Hooked on TdM said:
He alludes to having this secret to unlocking the Tarot

The main issue here is intention. I have problems with the idea of each image in the tarot being made with a secret intention. I find the idea of the tarot being made by enlightened masters too romantic. We don’t know who conceived the trumps, but we do know that the tarot was made by artisans. Having a background in art myself, I am interested in the fact that these artisans were masters of their craft, and although this may be problematic for some, is my suggestion that craft is what moves the human soul. What makes us feel god’s immensity as soon as we enter a cathedral is the architecture, architecture being -as my friend Scion has pointed out- a form of manipulation. All arts are a form of manipulation whose aim is to compose emotional states. The artisan doesn’t accomplishes that by means of occult knowledge, but with the very understanding of how to work with shape that defines his craft. The ideas I am sharing with you here are tied to Unger and Camoin’s ideas, but more precisely, to Matteo María Boiardo’s poem “I Truinfi”, and with Teófilo Folengo’s “Merlini Cocai’s Sonnets”. In the work of these two poets we have what could be the earliest historical account mentioning the use of Tarot for a purpose other than card playing, described an analogical game. In this game, a group of people will contrast their personalities and situations with the character depicted in the card they got. A more contemporary link to this can be found in Italo calvino’s “The Castle of the Crosses Destinies”, a book that I suggest everybody following this thread should read. (In his book, Calvino accomplished something I am aiming for you to accomplish in here. Something that Boiardo, Folengo, Unger and Camoin left conveniently aside, this is, and understanding of the pips as equally visual as the Trumps). As poets, Boiardo, Folengo and Calvino were able to understand the evocative quality of the trumps. As poet Robert Creeley wrote: “For a poet these details are profound masteries in themselves and speak as emphatically as will the evident content one otherwise calls ‘the meaning’.” In my opinion, the drama of the tarot is that we went from Boiardo, who was a poet, to Etteila, who was a hairdresser. Please understand here that I am totally biased about this. I feel that the idea of ‘occult’ knowledge always functions as a pyramid scam, with those who seek the occult knowledge at the base, the initiated in the middle, and the ‘master’ at the top. The problem being that on top of the master there seems to always be a forgery. I am totally biased against bad myth-making because bad myth-making is the opposite of art. For me, bad myth-making is the one who needs to be taken as truth to function. Art doesn’t need its metaphors to be taken as fact to have power. “A myth that only works if is taken as fact” can also be the definition of a lie. I prefer not to compromise myself pleading alliance to any secret school proposing any set of defined meanings. I don’t look for meaning in the cards. I look for meaning in life, and in the tarot I detect messages. In the following weeks we will see how a message is what speaks to us first. Instead of chasing the occult, I prefer to go back to Robert Creeley, who wrote: “one knows all too well that’s what to be said has only its own occasion”, because in my view, the experience of tarot is never about the tarot, but about the person who is looking at it. In fact, it is possible to say that by reading the tarot the tarot read us.


Now, I would like to recapitulate. So far, we have seen how there are two things we do in order to detect a message in the cards:


- Follow the poetic patterns

- Recall the image's semantic field

In my work, I focus on the first of these two aspect because it is there where I feel that I can make a worthwhile contribution. It is in the realm of tarot as a poetic event that I have something to share. The second aspect is equally important, but I feel there are other people already focusing on that with success. Understanding the Marseilles tarot's semantic field implies going back to that point in time before the 'occultists' discovered the tarot, (a point in time before the Golden Dawn legend reshaped our understanding of the tarot to the point of making us wrongly believe they were the main source of knowledge about the cards). But this is also a point in time when the Court de Gébelin, Papus and Etteila weren't relevant. We need to go further back. To understand the Marseilles tarot's semantic field we must become familiar with the art and culture of late Medieval Europe, and other writers have already commented on this extensively.

Jean-Michel David comes to mind. His online course aims at providing a comprehensive understanding of the card's iconography and the cultural influences that may have helped to shape them. Then there is Michael Hurst, whose sober essays I deeply enjoy, and there is of course the always-controversial Michael Dummet. The fact that Dummett's objective point of view has ruffled so many feathers is very telling. As another poet who prefers to remain unnamed once told me: "Everybody wants to make the tarot his bitch!"

In any case, what I need to point out before going further is that I do not believe in the idea of "not reading any books on the tarot". I do think, however, that the dogmatism of the 'occult' authors is useless, and at worst, bad myth-making. But is not possible to have a truthful comprehension of the Marseilles tarot without considering it as an artistic document, tied to the real-world of the post-medieval/renaissance era, and not to the occultist's micro-cosmos.

That said, I would like to advance an idea some of you might find problematic: a throughout understanding of the Marseilles tarot iconography won't necessarily make us good readers. To say that a reading is not a class on the tarot would be too obvious. The key is to understand that the purpose of a reading is to help a person reach a kind of knowledge they won't have access to by logical means, a knowledge that goes beyond the literal understanding of the cards and beyond their allegorical religious agenda. Such knowledge is reached by tapping into the card's anagogical level, and this occurs when both our semantic field and the cards semantic field overlap, generating a kind of meaning that is bigger than the combination of these two things: in other words, a revelation. Such a revelation occurs when we find what wasn't there before, and it can't be traced back to our personal semantic field, that is, to the context of what we know because we have experienced it. Nor can this revelation be traced back to the tarot's semantic field, that is, to the way the images on the cards can be found functioning in the art and literature of its time, or in the way the individual elements conforming each image can be found functioning within that culture.

For example, to point out Le Soleil and state that the two people in there are Cosmas and Damian, although very interesting, may be useless. At a literal level we can only speculate if they are Cosmas and Damian, a depiction of Gemini, or Laverne & Shirley. Besides, the tale of the two mischievous saints who traveled around, switching the rotten limbs of European patients for the healthy ones of moors cadavers may be too big to fit in our client's pocket, and too heavy to carry around just for the sake of it. The tarot makes us better people because by studying it we get to learn about all kind of things, including the curious life of Cosmas and Damian. But knowing these things won't make us better readers if we insist on believing that finding meaning in the cards consists of repeating on cue the tales we have learned. Using a tale for therapeutic purposes and doing divination aren't the same thing.

We must be responsible for our own metaphors. We must make divination the moment in which we help a person find new meaning. This is an act of poiesis in which a revelation appears in front of us expanding our understanding of reality, the tarot and life. That's what we do when we look at the cards: we let them reveal their original intention at an imaginal level. We must learn all we can about Le Soleil. We must learn about Gemini, Cosmas and Damian, the masculine and feminine principles, the House of Children and Pleasure, or the Hebrew letter Kaph so we can do an act of amnesia. Then we will look at Le Soleil and feel that nothing is obscure, everything is clear, radiant, nothing stands between these two characters and they are embracing, finding their voices in each other's ears. This is an alchemical process in which we take all our rationality and all our words and then decant them into a feeling, into a simple certainty, so we can look at few cards and say "look, this person is experiencing this." Many of us could write the biography of our father, delving into his personality, preferences, particularities and more relevant anecdotes. But that is not what experiencing 'father' is. Experiencing father means to feel in that presence, or in an embrace, the certainty of being safe. That is the difference between the poet and the historians. For a historian, a father is certain man of certain age who lived in certain address and knew certain people. For a poet, a father is the feeling of being safe. Historians hunts the facts about things, while poets trace back the essence of a thing to that very moment before it became a symbol.

All the best,

EE
 

EnriqueEnriquez

I almost forgot!

Stella,

I hadn’t seen your first exercise.

stella01904 said:
At first, only heat, but that's external here. Small, free-floating anxiety, probably leftover from the workday. No big deal.

African diviners believe that if you wake up with some pain, the pain is yours, but if you suddenly feel some pain, that pain isn’t yours, but it belongs to the person you are seeing, or you are about to see. I think it is always very important to have clear boundaries, and to know how much of what we are experiencing is about us, and how much is about the other person. The distinction you are making here is very sober. I personally tend to regard any image that comes to my mind, any feeling that takes over while I am in the presence of a client, to the client.

stella01904 said:
Silvery light. Space. Twinge in the right leg. I get an impression of a horizontal bar in front of me at about chest level and I am reminded of those big gates that they have out in the country where people keep cattle.

Card: X Batons

First impression:
Wow, if you turn it sideways, it's kind of like one of those gates!

Very good example of analogical thinking!

stella01904 said:
Further thoughts:
Heat: The starkness of the four leaves - those gates are almost never in the shade. The red and yellow on the card. The way everything radiates out from the red diamond-space in the center.
Anxiety: The Ten is beginning a new cycle after an old one is completed, I guess any beginning would get a person a little wound up. Or: Ten big sticks - uh-oh! :D
Silvery light: the grey-blue on the card.
Space: The openwork between the Batons. The leaves that seem to float there in space.
Twinge in the leg: That leg is sore, anyway, but the point is that I noticed it, right? I'm relating it to the card being a X - by the time you get there, you should have a little wear and tear, right? Upright, the two center Batons seem to support the other eight - the few holding up the many.
The bar/gate: Presents no obstacle. Even when those things are locked, it's easy enough to go over or through them. They are only there to keep cows in.
Just one little effort I have to make.

This is a great example of how, the more we know about the card’s semantic field, the more connections we can make. In this example from Stella we see our two strategies being applied. On the one hand she finds her door in the card, ‘at plain sight’. On the other hand she reaches into all her memories and understanding of the cards in order to explore all the possible connections between what she felt, and the card’s image.

It is good to have layers we can go through while looking at the cards. Obviously, detecting meaning in one single card is the hardest thing to do. As son as a card joins another one, rhymes and rhythms start happening, and we can have an clearer idea of what we are looking at.

stella01904 said:
Looking back at my first impression, it occurred to me that any Baton from II to VIIII would have been reminiscent of a gate, Le Monde would have had a cow on it, any number of cards would have had grass (pasture) - in other words, it may have been purely Expectation Bias.* So I tried again, focused on 21, and felt a lot random tingles, itches, and tickly feelings. In my mind I saw a flower opening. The card was Iugement.

This is very thoughtful of you, and very good. Iugement as a flower blossoming is another great example of analogical thinking. It is not about the facts, but about the essence of the thing.

Best,

EE
 

Satori

Just read post 51-twice.
EE, that is an excellent observation, lesson, essay. That is an entire lesson in and of itself. That is a priceless and important essay. Thank you.

EnriqueEnriquez said:
We must be responsible for our own metaphors.

I think this is a pivotal quote. Excellent.

Great stuff Professore. Great!
 

firefrost

I've just gone through it too, and printed it out.

Very, very interesting.

Thank you for all this, EE.


Re: my own post - mirrors - what an idiot I am! Why didn't I see the mirror effect in the cards, staring me straight in the face?!

Learning so much!
 

firefrost

I just ordered The Castle of Crossed Destinies :)
 

frelkins

Castle is a modernist classic, a beautiful and slightly surreal dreamy work. Calvino, such a genius.
 

stella01904

Enrique - thanks for the feedback - very encouraging! I especially liked this:

EnriqueEnriquez said:
African diviners believe that if you wake up with some pain, the pain is yours, but if you suddenly feel some pain, that pain isn’t yours, but it belongs to the person you are seeing, or you are about to see. I think it is always very important to have clear boundaries, and to know how much of what we are experiencing is about us, and how much is about the other person. The distinction you are making here is very sober. I personally tend to regard any image that comes to my mind, any feeling that takes over while I am in the presence of a client, to the client.
Food for thought there.

EnriqueEnriquez said:
As poets, Boiardo, Folengo and Calvino were able to understand the evocative quality of the trumps.
TdM resources I wasn't aware of. Thanks! It can be difficult to hunt down the real jewels, since they are usually not in any "Tarot" section. :)

I feel that the idea of ‘occult’ knowledge always functions as a pyramid scam, with those who seek the occult knowledge at the base, the initiated in the middle, and the ‘master’ at the top. The problem being that on top of the master there seems to always be a forgery.
Truth.

“A myth that only works if is taken as fact” can also be the definition of a lie.
Old story, worth repeating:

The great teacher and scholar Joseph Campbell, perhaps the twentieth century’s leading expert in the area of myth and mythology, would delight in telling this story:

Toward the end of a long and contentious radio broadcast, during which the host of the program wanted nothing whatsoever to do with Campbell’s intimations of mysticism and spirituality, the interviewer finally said to Campbell: “Curious thing to devote your life to a myth. Myth is a lie.”

“No, myth isn’t a lie,” Campbell responded. “Myth is metaphor. Mythology is an organization of symbolic images and narratives that are metaphors for the possibilities of human experience and fulfillment at a given time.”

This went right over the interviewer’s head, of course; still, he would have none of Campbell’s claptrap. “I’ll say it again,” he repeated. “Myth is a lie.”

This guy doesn’t have any idea what a metaphor is, Campbell thought to himself. “Give me an example of a metaphor,” he challenged the host—who quickly tried to change the subject. “Give me an example of a metaphor,” Campbell prodded. Finally, the interviewer came up with one: “Jack runs very fast. People say he runs like a deer.”

“That’s not a metaphor,” Campbell responded. “It’s a simile. The metaphor is ‘Jack is a deer.’”

“That’s a lie!” the host responded

“That’s a myth!” Campbell says. And with that, the broadcast drew to a close.


The fact that Dummett's objective point of view has ruffled so many feathers is very telling. As another poet who prefers to remain unnamed once told me: "Everybody wants to make the tarot his bitch!"
:D Now I've GOT to read this guy.

In any case, what I need to point out before going further is that I do not believe in the idea of "not reading any books on the tarot". I do think, however, that the dogmatism of the 'occult' authors is useless, and at worst, bad myth-making.

The "List-O-Meanings"<tm> school of Tarot writing. Get the sledgehammer. :D
 

Gavriela

Funny - it's been years since I read Calvino, but a while ago I came across a copy of Castle of Crossed Destinies dirt cheap at a used book shop online that I love, and ordered it. Post is painfully slow from America, but it will get here eventually. I wish I still had the Visconti deck, but I don't.

Ah, Stella, you're too right about most of the tarot classics being in aisles not related to tarot at all - or so we perceive.

Everyone from Boiardo to Petrarch, and dislike the GD as much as you want, but even Yeats had it, and so many others. One of my mental amusements is putting poems and songs to tarot cards.

I used to tell my tarot students that they needed at least a working knowledge of the bible, and preferably better, European art of the middle ages and Renaissance, how to read Renaissance frescoes (I remember what a revelation learning that was to me), semiotics, so many fields that seem to range so far from tarot - but don't. They're the stuff that it's built on, in a sense. It took all kinds of life to come up with those images. Why we think we can narrow down a card meaning to a few keywords escapes me.

I'm going to try to wish myself a Noblet deck - because I would like one. Not that I've given up on the occultists, either - though I don't worship them, but what was the connection between La Lenormande an JJ Grandville? (grandfather of surrealism and one of my favourite artists of all time). These things intrigue me because I love stories. And so does God, at least if some proverbs are to be believed.

The GD membership fees were about 20 times the income of the average worker in Britain way back when, if memory serves. Making sure to keep the riff-raff out. Or so they say. Draw your own conclusions.

I got so burnt out on tarot that by last winter I'd pretty much given it up and have been sticking to Lenormand (another iconic system) and similar oracles since then.

I am enjoying eye-rhymes. I learnt about them studying art, more when I studied film, and have a few oracle decks I read that way - it's just so difficult to ignore. Once upon a time I was a poet. I hope that comes back one day.

My Marseille skills are terribly rusty, and for that I apologise. My Spanish is still pretty good though. Enriqué, I love your site - but surely it isn't true that you don't require a SHOE SIZE to read for somebody?? :)

Have a good trip, all. Hope I do, too.
 

stella01904

Gavriela said:
I used to tell my tarot students that they needed at least a working knowledge of the bible, and preferably better, European art of the middle ages and Renaissance, how to read Renaissance frescoes (I remember what a revelation learning that was to me), semiotics, so many fields that seem to range so far from tarot - but don't. They're the stuff that it's built on, in a sense. It took all kinds of life to come up with those images. Why we think we can narrow down a card meaning to a few keywords escapes me.
Agreed!
"Read everything - then put it all aside" seems to work pretty well for me.

I got so burnt out on tarot that by last winter I'd pretty much given it up and have been sticking to Lenormand (another iconic system) and similar oracles since then.
I went through something similar. The beauty of it is that there's nothing like Lenormand for training the mind to string card interpretations together.

Then you come back to TdM and - wow.

Won't be online much for the next few days, so ta ta!
 

EnriqueEnriquez

stella01904 said:
The beauty of it is that there's nothing like Lenormand for training the mind to string card interpretations together.

Then you come back to TdM and - wow.

This is so true!

I love the Lenormand cards. Specially the PJ. These are pure symbol talking. In a couple of weeks we will explore the idea of ‘literal symbols’ which is pretty much what the Lenormand cards are.

I used to read a lot with the Lenormand deck, but I ended up concluding that if we are going to use literal symbols it is better to use those who come to the client’s mind instead. But I agree that submerging ourselves in the Lenormand is a great way of shading off the intellectual approach to the cards so we can look at the Marseille tarot and simply see...

Best,

EE