Illustration of 10 Swords in Thoth

ravenest

In time truth and justice will prevail but evil, violence and greed will cause heartbreak

Do not all sit there

I want to know

Am I correct ???

Are the thoth cards all as much fun as this :laugh:

Wait till you get to Atu 11 .... check out THAT toyboy the 'witch' is riding as her broomstick ! ;)
 

ravenest

I've come to the same conclusion, especially about Part One. There was even a brief exchange about it in this thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=246065&page=5

Crowley certainly left a lot of ground unturned. The geometric "doodles" in the background of the Swords cards, and most notably the 10 of Swords as discussed here, are a perfect example. But have you gone back and compared them to the nearly identical crystalline "wings" behind the throne of the Queen of Swords? Assuming that was painted after the Ten, looks like the "pigeons came home to roost." :)

Yep ... I have done comparisons with lots of them, and tried lots of stuff on magic squares. I got close results, and came to the conclusion that IF it is a design worked on a square, it could be a formula , or based on a number or code, without that being known, it would take as long as the half life of bismuth to work it out by trial and error !

I still think, the closest I have found is 'on the square' ... it cant be explained in words ... only in images .

<shrug> ... it remains ... a mystery ;)
 

ravenest

By eight other swords, actually. Per BoT:

The card's title (NOT keyword, please, but Title, as in Earl of Swindon) is "Lord of Ruin". Of course it's going to be gory, and distressing. The Sun's glorious, relentless, all-consuming energy is dissipated and corrupted by the paranoiac, jittery influence of mercurial Gemini. What happens when you hold a faceted crystal up to strong sunlight? The Rays are split, fractured. The points blind you. The white light is brought low into its component parts, and perhaps, even, destructive fire can be brought forth if the Rays are concentrated too much.

:bugeyed:


Wow! ... I love that ! Brilliant !

The thing is, trying to read this deck like the storyboards of the RWS is ultimately fruitless. The messages here are more conceptual, much less literal. This card represents an energy and a tendency, rather than a specific event or person. Yes

See above. You're simultaneously trying to over complicate and gloss over this card's message. It speaks very much of one's sense of self, perhaps of self-destructive mental habits or attitudes, of overdoing something to breaking point. Much effort has been expended and all we have left is a mess. Very meta.

yep !

Fun? Who's having fun? We here in the Thoth Department do not have fun that we are aware of, ma'am.

Yes, and that especially goes for me ! I dont like having fun in the Thoth Department . I guess it the Crowley influence 'rubbing off' ... he didnt like to have fun either :)
 

Barleywine

Yep ... I have done comparisons with lots of them, and tried lots of stuff on magic squares. I got close results, and came to the conclusion that IF it is a design worked on a square, it could be a formula , or based on a number or code, without that being known, it would take as long as the half life of bismuth to work it out by trial and error !

I still think, the closest I have found is 'on the square' ... it cant be explained in words ... only in images .

<shrug> ... it remains ... a mystery ;)

Hmm, now you've got me thinking. Snuffin makes much of the Saturn connections for this card, but all Crowley talks about is Sun in Gemini. Any interesting results applying the square of Saturn to the geometric patterns? At face valuie, it doesn't seem elaborate enough to capture all the points, but without trying it I can't be sure.
 

ravenest

Two things, in forming 'mandalas' on the square, especially on Saturn, you only have 9 points to work with. What 'Jain J.Jain' came up with was the simple innovation of drawing the pattern and overlaying the same pattern on it but turned at 90 degrees. Some were turned at variant degrees and times.

Again, too hard to describe without the images, check the images I PMed you, The swastika, for example, that is revealed within the center of the Sun square is not apparent UNTIL the design is rotated upon itself ( and the swastika is said to represent the 'swirling' power of the Sun, or its ability to 'move' across the sky - like a great wheel. )

So, rotation is one method. The other is as explained by Regardie in that wonderful little handbook 'How to draw talismans' . Here Gematria is used, and certain rules apply ( like the line ending in a small cross bar or circle, how to deal with double lines and points ( letters of same value, etc. ) . I have done some of these with other 'magical names' aside from the 'spirits intelligence' etc. to make 'kamea' mandala of one's own magical name , etc. ... and then THAT can be rotated.

Who knows what Frieda did ! - It might even pay off to ask an anthroposophyical artist ?


Or .....

< bzzzzz ... bzzzzzz ... >

Frieda; " Damn mosquitoes ! " SWAT! ... splat ! ... "Oh dear .... ummmm ... ah well, they will never know the difference with all this weird perspective and obscure symbolism going on . . . . let's just call it 'a mystery' ! " })

PS . yes AC does go on about Sun in Gemini ... but we must remember (and perhaps he expected us to remember ) that here, in this card, the influence is like the Sun is in a specific decan of Gemini . See my star info in # 31.

Another way to look at it, using a natal expression, via personality ( that is, a person that is a Gemini , like 'the Gemini' in this card. The closest I have seen is when combining east and west astrology, in the qualities of the Gemini / Goat .... nasty little butter !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8BXUFFG1Ns
 

Barleywine

Two things, in forming 'mandalas' on the square, especially on Saturn, you only have 9 points to work with. What 'Jain J.Jain' came up with was the simple innovation of drawing the pattern and overlaying the same pattern on it but turned at 90 degrees. Some were turned at variant degrees and times.

Again, too hard to describe without the images, check the images I PMed you, The swastika, for example, that is revealed within the center of the Sun square is not apparent UNTIL the design is rotated upon itself ( and the swastika is said to represent the 'swirling' power of the Sun, or its ability to 'move' across the sky - like a great wheel. )

So, rotation is one method. The other is as explained by Regardie in that wonderful little handbook 'How to draw talismans' . Here Gematria is used, and certain rules apply ( like the line ending in a small cross bar or circle, how to deal with double lines and points ( letters of same value, etc. ) . I have done some of these with other 'magical names' aside from the 'spirits intelligence' etc. to make 'kamea' mandala of one's own magical name , etc. ... and then THAT can be rotated.

Who knows what Frieda did ! - It might even pay off to ask an anthroposophyical artist ?


Or .....

< bzzzzz ... bzzzzzz ... >

Frieda; " Damn mosquitoes ! " SWAT! ... splat ! ... "Oh dear .... ummmm ... ah well, they will never know the difference with all this weird perspective and obscure symbolism going on . . . . let's just call it 'a mystery' ! " })

Yes! It's all very clear now: "found" art. The "squashed mosquito mandala." She must have squandered a bit of her "good karma" on that one.

I happened to have Robin Skelton's book Talismanic Magic out, and looking at the Kamea of Saturn and the derived talismanic figures, I can see what rotation might do. I'm going to play with it some.
 

ravenest

Thats the spirit .... research! But now the sun is up and I have to go water the garden , heatwave expected. keep us posted on results.
 

Aunty Anthea

The thing is, trying to read this deck like the storyboards of the RWS is ultimately fruitless. The messages here are more conceptual, much less literal. This card represents an energy and a tendency, rather than a specific event or person. Yes

I do not use the RWS and I do not know what you mean by storyboards :confused:

You're simultaneously trying to over complicate and gloss over this card's message. It speaks very much of one's sense of self, perhaps of self-destructive mental habits or attitudes, of overdoing something to breaking point. Much effort has been expended and all we have left is a mess. Very meta.

Fun? Who's having fun? We here in the Thoth Department do not have fun that we are aware of, ma'am.

I know almost nothing about Thoth deck other than that their meaning are not not meant to be remembered per se.

I believe that the cards are tools to open oneself up to greater levels of inctiveness and something far deeper and much darker :D
 

Barleywine

I do not use the RWS and I do not know what you mean by storyboards :confused:

I took it to mean the little self-contained vignettes in the scenic pip cards that can be strung together to make a narrative. At least that's how I've used them.
 

Aeon418

Two things, in forming 'mandalas' on the square, especially on Saturn, you only have 9 points to work with. What 'Jain J.Jain' came up with was the simple innovation of drawing the pattern and overlaying the same pattern on it but turned at 90 degrees. Some were turned at variant degrees and times.

I think rotation is the way to go. This seems to be what is happening on the 2 of Swords. That's the card where Crowley mentions the source of the geometrical pattern that repeats in various forms in the rest of the suit of Swords.

Aleister Crowley said:
In the card appear two swords crossed; they are united by a blue rose with five petals. This rose represents the influence of the Mother, whose harmonizing influence compounds the latent antagonism native to the suit. The Rose emits white rays, producing a geometrical pattern that emphasizes the equilibrium of the symbol.
The "latent antagonism native to the suit" tends towards dispersion. But the influence of the Mother may hold things together enough to create patterns (Yetzirah).

Does the resulting pattern represent the Kamea of Saturn? I don't know. Looking at the 2 of Swords I see a cross of 13 Squares (AHBH, AchD, etc..), but the arms are rotating and creating a pattern. A pattern that seems to degenerate as the suit progresses. Although there appears to be a bit more order present on other cards featuring a rose.