foolMoon
A great point Abrac. Thank you for your feedback.
Golden Dawn vs. Thelema
A great point Abrac. Thank you for your feedback.
Owl Tarot
I think this is a bit confusing. As Aeon said previously, comparing Thelema to Golden Dawn is like comparing apples to oranges. Golden Dawn was an iniatory Order which was demolished and no longer exists as the original Golden Dawn (there are various spin-offs here and there), while Thelema is a Religion/philosophical system/set of ideas and ideals. Golden Dawn's initiatory system can be used with Thelemic symbology and ideals just like it can be (as it has been) used with Christianity, and this is already done since various Thelemic Orders of the Golden Dawn do exist.
Barleywine
Once, a long time ago, I got the notion that I wanted to join the O.T.O. I contacted the regional head in New York and all I got back was a deafening silence. So I decided to stay "solitary" (of course moving to the woods of New Hampshire reinforced that decision). Now I have this forum for stimulation, so my interest in joining an organized group is still prtetty much nil. It's really a personal journey anyway; I don't "do" traditional religion because it has so many extraneous social trappings, and "occult orders" are likely vulnerable to the same degradation.
ravenest
Then you might not have liked it at all ... depending on what you mean by ' many extraneous social trappings' (and you see that as 'degradation? ), as part of the 'work' of the Order was a social experiment. Even some degrees have a part focus on social arrangements. * The group structure is a form of social government, etc. It is a fraternity after all, and a fraternity is a social network.
Even in an organised group there can be a large degree of 'solitary' , especially in regards to one's own individual gnosis (unless one wants to be a programmable member ... but I cant see that being a path to development). I think there becomes a stage, in any system, where one needs to focus on 'the hermit'.
However a group can be a lot of fun ... yeeeaaars back I was member of a coven... it was hilarious! Once the coven came here to visit, they hired a bus and were all coming together. We were waiting for them ... this mini bus came down the driveway full of black clad, pentagram wearing, people peering out the windows ... hilarious. Had 9 people sleeping on the floor of the cabin. Crazy fun times .... wouldnt want to do it now though.
I went to a 4 day retreat ( as the caterer) once, organised by a GD group head.
But I guess I am a strange one, I like both at the same time. When we had festivals here, I would do things like organise the large outdoor ritual circle, and I put on a spring equinox rite that about 300 attended. But every so often I would have to run away and spend hours by myself in my own space.
The OTO had about 4 retreats here too. Ahhh ... those were the days!
.... now I am a Hermit .... ahhh these are the days!
* "The members of the Fifth Degree are responsible for all that concerns the Social welfare of the Order. This grade is symbolically that of beauty and harmony; it is the natural stopping-place of the majority of men and women; for to proceed farther, as will appear, involves renunciation of the sternest kind. Here then is all joy, peace, well-being on all planes; the Sovereign Prince Rose Croix is attached equally to the higher and the lower, and forms a natural link between them. Yet let him look to it that his eyes are set on high!"
also , when one is in such a 'fraternal order', ' Hermetic solitude' is still required;
" 14. They must each live in solitude, without more than the necessary speech even to casual neighbours, serving themselves in all respects, for three months continuously, once at least in every two years."
Liber CXCIV.
Even in an organised group there can be a large degree of 'solitary' , especially in regards to one's own individual gnosis (unless one wants to be a programmable member ... but I cant see that being a path to development). I think there becomes a stage, in any system, where one needs to focus on 'the hermit'.
However a group can be a lot of fun ... yeeeaaars back I was member of a coven... it was hilarious! Once the coven came here to visit, they hired a bus and were all coming together. We were waiting for them ... this mini bus came down the driveway full of black clad, pentagram wearing, people peering out the windows ... hilarious. Had 9 people sleeping on the floor of the cabin. Crazy fun times .... wouldnt want to do it now though.
I went to a 4 day retreat ( as the caterer) once, organised by a GD group head.
But I guess I am a strange one, I like both at the same time. When we had festivals here, I would do things like organise the large outdoor ritual circle, and I put on a spring equinox rite that about 300 attended. But every so often I would have to run away and spend hours by myself in my own space.
The OTO had about 4 retreats here too. Ahhh ... those were the days!
.... now I am a Hermit .... ahhh these are the days!
* "The members of the Fifth Degree are responsible for all that concerns the Social welfare of the Order. This grade is symbolically that of beauty and harmony; it is the natural stopping-place of the majority of men and women; for to proceed farther, as will appear, involves renunciation of the sternest kind. Here then is all joy, peace, well-being on all planes; the Sovereign Prince Rose Croix is attached equally to the higher and the lower, and forms a natural link between them. Yet let him look to it that his eyes are set on high!"
also , when one is in such a 'fraternal order', ' Hermetic solitude' is still required;
" 14. They must each live in solitude, without more than the necessary speech even to casual neighbours, serving themselves in all respects, for three months continuously, once at least in every two years."
Liber CXCIV.
Richard
When I was in high school, my Sunday school class had a wild party in which we all (deliberately) got drunk. (The teacher was not invited, of course.) However, church social events usually can be counted on to be insufferably boring.
Many years ago I was involved with a local AMORC group. The social aspect was tolerable only because most of us were eccentric noncomformists.
ravenest
Yes, drunken eccentric non-conformism was part of my 'occult group' experience too
Barleywine
Then you might not have liked it at all ... depending on what you mean by ' many extraneous social trappings' (and you see that as 'degradation? ), as part of the 'work' of the Order was a social experiment. Even some degrees have a part focus on social arrangements. * The group structure is a form of social government, etc. It is a fraternity after all, and a fraternity is a social network.
Even in an organised group there can be a large degree of 'solitary' , especially in regards to one's own individual gnosis (unless one wants to be a programmable member ... but I cant see that being a path to development). I think there becomes a stage, in any system, where one needs to focus on 'the hermit'.
However a group can be a lot of fun ... yeeeaaars back I was member of a coven... it was hilarious! Once the coven came here to visit, they hired a bus and were all coming together. We were waiting for them ... this mini bus came down the driveway full of black clad, pentagram wearing, people peering out the windows ... hilarious. Had 9 people sleeping on the floor of the cabin. Crazy fun times .... wouldnt want to do it now though.
I went to a 4 day retreat ( as the caterer) once, organised by a GD group head.
But I guess I am a strange one, I like both at the same time. When we had festivals here, I would do things like organise the large outdoor ritual circle, and I put on a spring equinox rite that about 300 attended. But every so often I would have to run away and spend hours by myself in my own space.
The OTO had about 4 retreats here too. Ahhh ... those were the days!
.... now I am a Hermit .... ahhh these are the days!
* "The members of the Fifth Degree are responsible for all that concerns the Social welfare of the Order. This grade is symbolically that of beauty and harmony; it is the natural stopping-place of the majority of men and women; for to proceed farther, as will appear, involves renunciation of the sternest kind. Here then is all joy, peace, well-being on all planes; the Sovereign Prince Rose Croix is attached equally to the higher and the lower, and forms a natural link between them. Yet let him look to it that his eyes are set on high!"
also , when one is in such a 'fraternal order', ' Hermetic solitude' is still required;
" 14. They must each live in solitude, without more than the necessary speech even to casual neighbours, serving themselves in all respects, for three months continuously, once at least in every two years."
Liber CXCIV.
I was thinking of church suppers, bingo nights, choir sings and that sort of mindless socializing, not the social engineering involved in running an organization to facilitate the members' interaction for the purposes stated in the charter. (I really need to write shorter sentences.) Thanks for the quote. As always, he makes perfect sense.
ravenest
No , they wouldnt have done that to you ... even Satanists dont practice that particular brand of cruelty.
The worse I encountered was the home made tarot set made on beer coasters at the pub one night.
The worse I encountered was the home made tarot set made on beer coasters at the pub one night.
foolMoon
Finished Cicero's "The Essential GOLDEN DAWN", and now I feel I understand it better. It was a good read.
But I recall the book saying that one does not need to be a member of any order, because after all, it is the person himself who has to come to the enlightenment to divine knowledge. No one else apart from himself / herself can do it for him / her.
One can also initiate oneself into the system (self initiation), if necessary without having to attend the lodges or temples.
I am quite happy just reading and learning about these systems for the moment from comfy home study.
But I recall the book saying that one does not need to be a member of any order, because after all, it is the person himself who has to come to the enlightenment to divine knowledge. No one else apart from himself / herself can do it for him / her.
One can also initiate oneself into the system (self initiation), if necessary without having to attend the lodges or temples.
I am quite happy just reading and learning about these systems for the moment from comfy home study.
ravenest
That can be very interesting. I have done a bit of reading on the GD and OTO origins - not the standard stuff but the overall view, what was going on at the time and who the predecessors were (groups and individuals ) its a very radical History, some of those post-Victorian magical women (you rarely hear about) where quiet influential and radical.
Some were still transitioning from a blend of 'table rapping' spiritualism, magical mirrors, secret masters and western sexual tantra.
I recently expanded my reading about the 'Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor' and are just about to start on Emma Harding; 'Art Magic or Mundane sub-mundane and super-mundane spiritism '(1876),
Published a year before Blavatsky’s classic Isis Unveiled,
It covers; “Pre-existence of the Soul – Its Descent into Matter,” “Extracts from the Vedas,” “The History of the Sun God,” “Hindoo, Egyptian, Greek and Roman Theology,” “Sex Worship,” “How Solar and Sex Worship came to be Interblended,” “Jewish Cabala,” “Spiritism and Magic,” “The Rosicrucians,” “Astral Light,” “Woman as Priestess and Sibyl,” “Narcotics,” Thibetian Lama,” “Magic Amongst the Mongolians,” “The Great Pyramid – Its Probable Use,” “The Modes of Divination, both lawful and unlawful, amongst the Jews,” “Siberian Schaman,” “Salamanders – Sylphs – Gnomes – Fairies,” “Witchcraft,” “Alchemists – Rosicrucians – Philosopher’s Stone,” and included chapters on Nostradamus, Agrippa, Swedenborg, Mesmer, and Paracelsus, crystal seeing, stones, charms, amulets, talismans, clairvoyance and magic mirrors. It also lifted its illustrations from The Rosicrucians by Hargrave Jennings.
Busy wasnt she
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Hardinge_Britten
Some were still transitioning from a blend of 'table rapping' spiritualism, magical mirrors, secret masters and western sexual tantra.
I recently expanded my reading about the 'Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor' and are just about to start on Emma Harding; 'Art Magic or Mundane sub-mundane and super-mundane spiritism '(1876),
Published a year before Blavatsky’s classic Isis Unveiled,
It covers; “Pre-existence of the Soul – Its Descent into Matter,” “Extracts from the Vedas,” “The History of the Sun God,” “Hindoo, Egyptian, Greek and Roman Theology,” “Sex Worship,” “How Solar and Sex Worship came to be Interblended,” “Jewish Cabala,” “Spiritism and Magic,” “The Rosicrucians,” “Astral Light,” “Woman as Priestess and Sibyl,” “Narcotics,” Thibetian Lama,” “Magic Amongst the Mongolians,” “The Great Pyramid – Its Probable Use,” “The Modes of Divination, both lawful and unlawful, amongst the Jews,” “Siberian Schaman,” “Salamanders – Sylphs – Gnomes – Fairies,” “Witchcraft,” “Alchemists – Rosicrucians – Philosopher’s Stone,” and included chapters on Nostradamus, Agrippa, Swedenborg, Mesmer, and Paracelsus, crystal seeing, stones, charms, amulets, talismans, clairvoyance and magic mirrors. It also lifted its illustrations from The Rosicrucians by Hargrave Jennings.
Busy wasnt she
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Hardinge_Britten
