arguments for Justice 8 and Strength 11

Sulis

I much prefer Justice at number 8 and Strength at number 11.

I use numbers in my readings because there are numbers on all of the decks that I use; they're there just as all the other symbolism is there so I incorporate them into my readings. I prefer decks that don't have RWS type scenes on the Minor Arcana so I primarily use image, element, context and number to get the card's meaning and I often link the Minors to the Major that has the same number and link the meanings (all the Aces are aspects of The Magician etc).

To me the number 8 is a card of balance, of movement around a fixed central point and of harvest, reaping what we sow, seeing the results of previous actions etc.. That links it to Justice, not Strength..

From what I've read I understand that The Golden Dawn changed the Strength card's number to 8 so that it would correspond to the astrological sign of Leo and changed Justice's number to 11 so that it would correspond to the astrological sign of Libra - I don't use astrology in my readings at all and know very little about it so those associations don't resonate with me at all.
 

flyingwind66

From the beginning of Tarot until Arthur Waite, probably 500 years, it worked wuth Justice as 8 and Strength as 11. Decks that are numbered that way give great readings, they always have. Whenever this gets asked about I'm always a little confused as to *why* people might see this is a problem?

I don't see it as a problem, I just need to know why it was numbered that way. I have some understanding for why it was changed and why it works with Strength 8 and Justice 11, I now want to know why it was Justice 8 and Strength 11 in many older decks (I say many, not all because some were un-numbered and some were different again)

I would suggest asking about this in the Golden Dawn Traditions subforum of the Thoth forum. It is not a popular topic, because when the answer is given, most people either immediately lose interest or else begin to ridicule the answer.

Suffice it to say that the Justice 11 and Strength 8 usage did not originate with A. E. Waite and his Tarot deck, but rather with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. A. Crowley agreed with it in principle but found it expedient to revert to the Marseille card numbering for mathematical reasons.

I know that it originated with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, it was just that Waite was the first to have a widely published deck with the changed numbering that is why I mentioned it. Crowley was also a member but he did not make his deck until after her left the order and changed it back for "mathematical reasons"

... but what ARE these "mathematical reasons"? All I can find so far is "something about Pythagoras" and "something about math" but what IS that SOMETHING?

I use the numbers when I do the summary/quint card.
Ex. Empress(3) + 2 of wands + 3 of cups

3 + 2 + 3 = 8

summary? do you add all the numbers of your reading together until you get a single/double digit that is a part of the major arcana and use that as a 'summary'?
 

Zephyros

I know that it originated with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, it was just that Waite was the first to have a widely published deck with the changed numbering that is why I mentioned it. Crowley was also a member but he did not make his deck until after her left the order and changed it back for "mathematical reasons"

Here is a good explanation of Crowley's reasons for changing the order back, or rather, going by an older tradition. It does entail of bit of knowledge of astrology, though. I myself understand it only in fuzzy terms, though.

http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleonZodiacBelt.html

The Golden Dawn changed the order so as to show a more natural progression of the Majors starting with the Emperor at Aries, the Hierophant with Taurus, Lovers Germini, etc.

But then Crowley did all sorts of things.
 

Melia

I do not know why the numbering of these 2 cards was switched, or who changed them, but when I look at the strength card (Rider Waite) it yells number 11 to me.

In numerology 11 is an ominous number. 9/11 anyone? If you pay attention to what happens on 11 days or 11 dates, you will see that the strength card would be (is) better as 11. 11 warns people against hidden dangers, great difficulties to contend with and treachery from others. This is why in the strength card you have the lion being muzzled by the woman (i.e. the lion’s mouth being forced and controlled) to indicate an inappropriate/excessive/unnatural use of force (aka strength).

Forget mathematics or astrology ... the universally accepted (ancient) symbolism of the numbers was given in pictures (now lost), but some are found in the tarot cards. The strength card ought to really be number 11 and justice 8. ... in my opinion.
 

Nineveh

I don't see it as a problem, I just need to know why it was numbered that way. I have some understanding for why it was changed and why it works with Strength 8 and Justice 11, I now want to know why it was Justice 8 and Strength 11 in many older decks (I say many, not all because some were un-numbered and some were different again)



I know that it originated with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, it was just that Waite was the first to have a widely published deck with the changed numbering that is why I mentioned it. Crowley was also a member but he did not make his deck until after her left the order and changed it back for "mathematical reasons"

... but what ARE these "mathematical reasons"? All I can find so far is "something about Pythagoras" and "something about math" but what IS that SOMETHING?



summary? do you add all the numbers of your reading together until you get a single/double digit that is a part of the major arcana and use that as a 'summary'?
Yes, I do. However, if my initial sum is 21 (world) I may keep that as summary. Many people will continue until a single digit is reached so their summary would be empress. I usually add double digits only once I pass 21 on the original count.

I think other people simply use a shadow card but I've seen readers here use both a shadow and summary card. I don't use a shadow card at all during my spreads.
 

ThusSpokeZarathustra

I disagree with the association of 8 with Strength and 11 with Justice, personally. RW switched them because of a preoccupation with astrology... as if that meant anything in the grander, global scheme of things. I say whatever came first, in this situation, is more meaningful.
 

Ruby Jewel

Tarot of the Bohemians

Look at layout of the two ternaries in the second septenary of "Tarot of the Bohemians" by Papus, the upper ternary is made up of the Chariot (7) as yod, Strength (8) as he, Hermit (9) as vau. The lower ternary, which is a mirror image of the upper ternary is The Wheel of Fortune (10) as yod, Justice (11) he, and Hanged Man (12). You can lay this out yourself by putting the yods at the top of the triangle, and the he and vau at the base going counterclockwise. Put the two bases of the triangles together and you have the top ternary and the lower ternary, which together make up the 2nd septenary. (The first septenary begins with the Magician as yod).

..........7

8...................9

11.................12

...........10

The 8 and 11 are mirror images because they are both "he's" facing each other. Interestingly, the third septenary begins with the Devil (13) as yod in the upper ternary and that septenary (made up of the upper and lower ternaries) ends with The Moon 18 as the vau, which is the last card of the third septenary.

The third septenary I refer to as the Dark Night of the Soul or the Underworld. You enter it with the Devil (13) and leave through the Gate in the Moon card (18). When you leave the third septenary you enter the upper world again with the Sun card (19) as yod, Judgment (20) as he, and World (21) as vau. It is the final ternary which does not have a mirror image or lower septenary because.......you are now reborn The Fool (22), which starts a new journey through the tarot with the Magician as yod of the first ternary.

My point is that when I look at the cards in the lower ternary of the 2nd septenary, (above), I see it as the last stage before entering the Dark Night or Underworld of the third septenary. I see the triad of The Wheel of fortune, Justice, and the Hanged Man as depicting karma and just retribution, and the upper ternary of Chariot, Strength, and the Hermit as three moral lessons. But, note that the last encounter before entering the Dark Night/Underworld is with Justice, Wheel of Fortune, and Hanged man. It is the triad of "karma and just retribution" before entering into the underworld. Therefore, I find Strength as 8 and Judgment as 11 a logical placement for them.

I know that there was a lot of trickery going around back around the Golden Dawn era to keep the tarot secret, so they were known to deliberately transpose cards and put them in the wrong place to confuse. I think Waite put them back in their proper places. However, all of this is hypothetical now.....I'm not sure anybody knows for sure.

Believe me, I know how confusing this is. It took me awhile to figure it all out myself. I think if you try laying out the major arcana cards beginning with the Magician you will see what I'm talking about. It is quite enlightening, actually; and well worth the time and effort.
 

Ruby Jewel

Basic Structure of Layout

A Septenary is made of 6 cards in numerical sequence, laid out in 2 triangles (a triangle is called a ternary) with their bases parallel and the tips pointing in opposite directions.

Begin with the triangle of Magician (1) at the top, High Priestess (2) on the left side of the base, and Empress (3) on the right side of the base opposite the High Priestess.

Next build the 2nd triangle as a mirror image with the tip pointing down that is Emperor (4), Justice (5) below the High Priestess on the base, and Lovers (6) below the Empress on the base. (Remember 2 bases are parallel with tips pointing in opposite directions).

You now have the first septenary which is made up of the two ternaries (triangles)

Now you begin the 2nd Septenary with Chariot (7) at the top, and in counterclockwise place Strength (8) and Hermit (9) at the base. Bottom half of the Septenary is World (10) at the tip and so on.

This process is explained in "Tarot of the Bohemians" by Papus. The 3rd Septenary begins with 13 through 18. When I laid this all out on a big sheet of plywood on 2 horses I could hardly believe what I saw. It was the entire logical sequence of the journey of the Fool from birth, through the dark world of Death, Devil, Moon,....etc ( I, personally, call it the Night Sea Journey or the Dark Night of the Soul because it is quite obviously that) and back out into the bright light of the Sun card and on through the World where is found the foetus (hermaphrodite) for the rebirth of the Fool.

It is really beautiful to behold. It is also easy once you get going on it.
 

Zephyros

I disagree with the association of 8 with Strength and 11 with Justice, personally. RW switched them because of a preoccupation with astrology... as if that meant anything in the grander, global scheme of things. I say whatever came first, in this situation, is more meaningful.

This comment puzzles me. First of all because as has been discussed, Waite didn't invent the switch, he just went along with it. Secondly, in the "grander scheme" there isn't a grander scheme, really. The divinatory meanings everyone uses today for both the Majors and the Minors are derived from both astrology and Kabbalah. They are hardly the default, which could be said to be the rather neutral Marseilles decks (or even older decks, that were not numbered at all, or were ordered differently with a few different cards). The images on the RWS exist because of that system, not in spite of it, and so even the Minors are affected by the change. That "preoccupation with astrology" is part of why the RWS exists, and part of why it is so popular.
 

Yaqub Lutfi

In Alejandro Jodorowsky's "The way of the Tarot" (La vía del Tarot), in which he describes his reconstruction of the Marseille deck with Camoin Strength is number 11 because is the magician developed to the higher level (they both have the infinity sign on the hat). Likewise, in the Gran Tarot Esotérico both cards have the same symbol over their heads.

If you were to align the major arcana from 1 to 10 and then make another row under it from 11 - 21 the pairs you get have similar symbolism. For instance, the Hierophant with two men at his feet and the devil with two creatures. Therefore it makes sense for strength and the magician to go together.

However, the Rider-Wite stricture also makes sense in the astrological way, but I am afraid the KABALAH wound't make sense. Strength is number 11, therefore the letter Kaf which traced back to the phoenician alphabet is the symbol for "to be able to bend". Justice is the letter Chet, value number 8, which traces back to the symbol for "joy".

On the numerology side, though. Justice as number 8 (number of night and stability) doesn't really match, however number 11 seems more appropriate for justice as 11 has two 1's and 1+1=2 so is a symbol for perfection.

To sum up, both ways seem to have enough validity for me, it all depends on your deck(s).