The Behenian Fixed Stars

kwaw

Thanks Rosanne, helpful image. If I am visualising it right I think Deneb Algedi would come between pleiades and antares? Deneb algedi is not labeled on the Keiths Astrolabe image, there is a 'Deneb' marked near vega but I don't think it is the Behenian Deneb Algedi (delta capricorni), the tail of the goat, but another Deneb.

Kwaw
 

Rosanne

Yes I have included the Deneb near Vega- not Denebola. I thought the one lower down was called Kaitos- I used Alpha Cygni. I am not sure which one is the right one, that is for sure. It would change the order, but not by much. I am just looking for a fairly plain answer to the sequence, before taking esoteric somersaults for an answer to the sequence. I figure it will not be a code that I have to take a Math degree for. But then again it was about Magic and talismans- so anything could be the answer- for example the Herb name in Hebrew applied to the star by letter of the Abjad. If it is something like that, then I am going camping while you :D work it out! It is interesting neh? (Neh? is an inquiry at the end of sentences -in the Maori language, I guess you Brits would say Nae?)~Rosanne
 

kwaw

Rosanne said:
Yes I have included the Deneb near Vega- not Denebola. I thought the one lower down was called Kaitos- I used Alpha Cygni.

I thought you had used alpha cygni; the Behenian star is Debeb Algedi, the tail of the goat, modern designation Delta Capricorni; currently 'in' the sign of Aquarius [the fish tail in the water of the Star card?]; I have labeled it on the Hebrew inscribed astrolabe just Deneb for short. The Hebrew name on the astrolabe is ZNB HGDY that means tail of the Goat [GDY - Goat is the Hebrew name for Capricorn]; its star pointer is on the outside of the ecliptic pointing just about midway through DLY [Aquarius].

Kwaw
 

Rosanne

Thanks Kwaw- at least that puts the Devil at the Crow ! But Deneb at X ? That is stranger than Algol at X1X- but then as I think you once said something about the ugly Sun's face :D For the first time I seem now to be inline with Kabala thought with Deneb Algedi at 10. ~Rosanne
 

kwaw

Rosanne said:
Thanks Kwaw- at least that puts the Devil at the Crow ! But Deneb at X ? That is stranger than Algol at X1X- but then as I think you once said something about the ugly Sun's face :D For the first time I seem now to be inline with Kabala thought with Deneb Algedi at 10. ~Rosanne

UUhm..Algol - XIX not my first or to me an obvious choice, on the other hand, if alf-fool then Sun = Resh - which means 'head' ;)

As for Deneb Algedi as X, my preference is for a matche with the star [aquarius and the tail of the fish goat in the water], however if we look at houses instead of signs wehave the image of the wheel in eleventh house as in the Schaer horoscope for example that falls circa the right place:

ErhardSchoenHoroscope.gif


Kwaw
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
UUhm..Algol - XIX not my first or to me an obvious choice, on the other hand, if alf-fool then Sun = Resh - which means 'head' ;)

Kwaw

The name of Algol on the Hebrew astrolabe is RASh HShR, Head of the Chief.

(ShR means chief, prince, angel, genius depending on context, also may be if taken in context of the sun card a play on ShRB which means to glare, heat of the sun, dry heat, burn).

Kwaw
 

Scion

Hey!

That's interesting Kwaw, and it makes a solid case for Algol/XIX, although it raises a big question for me...

I wonder about the source of that Hebrew title "Head of the Chief"? Is that astrolabe's titling identical to other medieval astrolabes that depict Behenian fixed stars? Is Algol referred to as "Head of the Chief" anywhere else? I ask, not to be obstreperous, but because we seem to have focussed on that one intrument and I don't know enough about medieval astrolabes to know if those titles are common/standard.

For that matter, how much do Jewish and Arabic astrological tradition overlap before we get to Spain in the 12th century and the strange inclusivity of Alfonso X? Why would we look to Hebrew names (standard or not) to determine meaning and content for the fixed stars when the tradition is (by most accounts) an Arabic one derived from Hellenistic sources?

The impact of Arabic astrology and magick on the Western occult tradition is substantial enough that I don't follow why Hebrew titles should make Algol any less gruesome (which most classical astrologers thought it was). Not to get all "baby with the bathwater," but if Jewish thought about the fixed stars is vital and central to the astrological tradition, then how accessible were those thoughts to an Italian of the early Renaissance? Hebrew is such a kneejerk esoteric fallback with Tarot, is it necessary to graft it on here as well without a specific reason to do so? I guess what I'm saying is, it is interesting when the Hebrew variations in naming support the familiar titles, but I'm not sure if 6 letters on a single instrument are enough to use in speculation.

(the following two quotes cited from http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gtosiris/page11-26.html)
"The astrolabe, essentially a two-dimensional model of the sky, was originally a Greek invention (dating circa 3rd-century BCE) to enable the problems of spherical astronomy (i.e., the prediction of star positions) to be solved. It moved with the spread of Islam through North Africa into Spain (Andalusia). It would appear that England, due to the scientific activity centred at Oxford, was the conduit for the introduction of the astrolabe from Spain into western Europe in the late 13th-century and the 14th-century. Historians have not settled the debate over who was responsible for the transmission of the astrolabe from Muslim Spain into Europe and when and where the astrolabe first appeared in Europe."

"Linguist Maio Pei made a check of 183 English star-names he concluded that 125 were from Arabic, and 9 were from Arabic-Latin." (See: Story of the English Language by Mario Pei (1967; Page 225).)

and also...

"The star names used in the classical Islamic world were derived from two distinct sources: the names used by pre-Islamic Bedouins, and those transmitted from the Greek world. As Greek astronomy and astrology were accepted and elaborated, primarily through the Arabic translation of Ptolemy's Almagest, the indigenous Bedouin star groupings were overlaid with the Ptolemaic constellations that we recognize today." (Islamicate Celestial Globes by Emilie Savage-Smith (1985) Page 114.)

I can follow the logic of Arabs to merchant traffic into Italian and Southern French port towns as a likely site for the appearance of a star map with exotic images... (Again Daana Mindon makes a really solid case for a map deriving from North Africa.) But, without wanting to rock the boat, I'm not sure how much weight I'd accord that Hebrewlabeling, before I have a sense of the use of the Behenii by astrologers of the period. But I'm happy to be wrong; I just want to follow your logic.

Am I totally off base?

Scion

P.S. I sort of collated y'all's thoughts up to this point as I understand them, and put together a large chart with the Behenian fixed stars arranged in Rosanne's climbing helix order, and alternately the zodiac circle of the year. I thought having the stuff all situated in a few tables might make discussion easier. I'll produce a PDF and attach it shortly.
 

kwaw

Re: the hebrew astrolabe it is simply one of my favourite images of old astrolabe, and a rare one there being only a few extent from western europe with hebrew inscription. As one of my favourites I use it merely to map and show where the Behenian are in relation to each other, also it happens to have star pointers to all the Behenian stars which not all astrolabes do; the hebrew names of the stars are in most cases either hebrew translations of the arabic names, for example ZNB HGDY is translation of Arabic Deneb Algedi both meaning 'tail of the goat', or some of them are transliterations of Arabic, for example ALAVZAL the Arabic Alaazal. Don't have to use the Hebrew if you don't want to, and perhaps by making play with the Hebrew names I am mixing up the points being made and confusing things. The word play just came to mind when Rosanne wondered about any possible Algol-XIX connection and is merely some free association, Hebrew and Arabic have some common ground and it is possible some of the word play I have made with the Hebrew there may be something similar in the Arabic but I don't know if that is the case. Here are some other astrolabes:

A 13th century French astrolabe:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/picturel.php?ENumber=26056

Hispanic-moorish c.1300
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk:9673/Astrolabe/Web...strolabe_ID=224

A close up:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/catalogue.php?ENumber=63355

Another Hispano-moorish c.1260:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/picturel.php?ENumber=28895

Another:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/picturel.php?ENumber=89739

English 1300:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/picturel.php?ENumber=79578

English 1326:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/picturel.php?ENumber=40428

English signed and dated 1342:
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/epact/picturel.php?ENumber=67917

The astrolabes show the knowledge and spread of the arabic names of the stars [in latin translation] to the west [the names appear on the star pointers]; note also the use of arabic numeration on these early mathematical instruments.

Kwaw
 

Scion

Many thanks, Kwaw... And I can see why you love that image; it's actually been my desktop wallpaper since you posted it. And maybe you aren't confusing things; I was just growning confused, if you see what I mean. :)

And thank you for the links. I'm going to dig around and see what shakes loose. Here's where I wish my arabic studies were further along. :(

More soon

Scion
 

Rosanne

There are several gaps in the stream of stars as a descending spiral- as an example between Algol and Vega- could this mean a planet goes in there?
It will be interesting to see what Scion can ferret out. I am also wondering if something can be made of the letters SPDT? I recall sometime seeing that somewhere in connection with Sirius.
As to Algol and the Sun- it is associated with Hellebore which is called the Christ Herbe, the Lenten Rose and mainly the Christmas Rose. It is not a rose. It starts to flower in winter and is in full bloom in Jan/Feb in NH. It is a narcotic, and if not prepared well can kill- it was used as a purgative and to cure coughs and colds and calm the emotionally upset.~Rosanne