High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

Thirteen said:

I knew there'd be someone around here with experience with a Prudence card to let us know if this view had any merit.

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I think it absolutely does have merit, and your reasoning makes perfect sense to me. In fact, the first time I saw a Prudence card it was with the Etteilla deck, and it struck me in a visceral way. I thought, This is the High Priestess in disguise.

Thirteen said:

Thinking about this, it also puts an interesting twist on an ill-dignified HPS. Might an inverted HPS—if viewed as partially Prudence—suggest self-reflection that offers a distorted view rather than a clear reflection? Like, say, the way so many men and women look in the mirror and only focus on their flaws?

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Works for me. I could easily see the HP/P representing distorted information. Like a person reflecting on their flaws. Or worse yet, seeing only their good traits and completely ignoring their flaws. Hmmm...I'm not sure which is worse.

High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

Robert Place's Sevenfold Mystery has Prudence in the position of the World. His reasoning is worth pondering.

This discussion also reminds me of Lo Scarabeo's "Mategna" deck, which I was told is a Neo-Platonic deck, in which all the virtues discussed here are depicted. I thought that deck was highly informative. Let me see if I can find a link to either the deck or its Prudence card.

When looking for the missing virtues of Faith and Charity, The Popess and The Empress spring to mind. The art of the Papess card is very, very similar to allegories of Faith in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries: Wearing a papal tiara, most often holding a book.

If The Papess is Faith, however, it can not be Prudence. Even if it was popular in the late 18th century to designate The Hanged Man as Prudence – so did Gebelin and Etteilla – I would rather suggest The Hermit.

Frater Benedict said:

If The Papess is Faith, however, it can not be Prudence.

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Oh, I don't know about that. We don't see any Hope, Faith, Charity in the deck, like we do Temperance, Fortitude, Justice. So, it seems that cards do double duty to take those three on. Like the Star being both the Star and standing for Hope.

If the HPS was always really Prudence--if she was *supposed* to be Prudence and got renamed, then there's no reason should could't do double duty as well. Prudence & faith. Just like the Star does double duty.

Just a thought there.

I do not deny that 'hope' is a meaning associated with The Star since 1870, and I am assured that it is a useful way of reading the card for those who stick to that internally coherent reading-system, but it says nothing about any allegorical meaning present among artists and first tarot players in 15th century Italy.

In renaissance and baroque art 'Hope' is generally depicted with an anchor, sometimes trampling the hanged Judas underfoot. A beehive, a pilgrim's staff or a sailing-ship may occur. Her choice of bird is not uniform: A dove, a phoenix or a swallow may occur. A chalice may be held by Hope, as well as by Faith and Charity, and is not a good symbol to distinguish between the three, neither is the patriarchal cross, which is sometimes held by Faith and sometimes by Hope. Hope, as generally depicted at the time, does not look like The Star, so 'hope' is a layer of significance accumulated later.

Frater Benedict said:

In renaissance and baroque art 'Hope' is generally depicted with an anchor, sometimes trampling the hanged Judas underfoot. A beehive, a pilgrim's staff or a sailing-ship may occur. Her choice of bird is not uniform: A dove, a phoenix or a swallow may occur.

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If we're searching for which cards are these virtues--and we're giving the cards with females in them preference--then we have to assign virtues to cards whether or not they have the requisite symbols. HPS, Empress, Strength, Justice, Temperance, Star and World-- all feature females in the older decks. I can see why the HPS would be cast as Faith with her cross, leaving the world as Prudence, But that still puts Star and Empress as Hope and Charity. No matter if they're lacking any symbols indicating the as such.

Personally, I'd still rather cast the HPS as Prudence. The World doesn't work at all for me as that virtue. And as the other three (Fortitude, Justice, Temperance) are in the deck, and Faith, Hope, Charity are no where to be seen, I'd just as soon assume that Faith, Hope Charity were not meant to be part of the deck, but Prudence, Fortitude, Justice and Temperance were, therefore, there must be a Prudence.

Thirteen said:

If we're searching for which cards are these virtues--and we're giving the cards with females in them preference--

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The allegorical genii of the virtues in medieval and renaissance art are most often females, but not always. In the Pierpont Morgan Visconti-Sforza deck, Strength (Fortitude) is depicted as either Hercules or Samson with a club and a lion. Although a replacement card probably painted by Antonio Cicognara, it is still the oldest copy of a Strength card we have. We can't therefore limit our search to female genii for the virtues. The analogy with the Visconti-Sforza Strength card causes me to suspect The Hermit as Prudence.

While the HP is a tempting candidate for Prudence, I just don't see it. Prudence implies a certain measure, proper amounts of something. Her two faces symbolizing seeing into the past and future imply drawing conclusions. These things would point to Temperance, but not in the common parlance meaning moderation but rather the alchemical connotation of "tempering" one thing with another. Prudence could even imply a certain balance, nature constantly swinging to and fro like a pendulum, adjusting to different circumstances.

Plus I can certainly see this quality as being shown by the Hermit. It somehow just smacks of Virgo (assuming, of course, that our Hermit actually is Virgo).

High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

It would be interesting to see how Prudence is depicted here:

http://www.learntarot.com/mtdesc.htm

"The Mantegna Tarot is a reproduction of the Italian Tarocchi of Mantegna dating from about 1470. The exact date is unknown, but some researchers believe the images may predate the well-known Visconti-Sforza. The Tarocchi of Mantegna was not a true tarocchi pack, but a set of prints or cards. The set has been attributed to artist Andrea Mantegna of Padua, but may actually be the work of Parrasio Michele of Ferrara. The Mantegna Tarot consists of 50 cards divided into 5 groups of 10. The figures in each group represent certain traditional classes or subjects. (See the lists below). The subjects within each group are ranked in order from least to most important, with the lowest number being most subordinate."

Human Conditions:
Wretch, Servant, Artisan, Merchant, Gentleman, Knight, Duke, King, Emperor, High Priest

Apollo and the Muses:
Calliope, Urania, Terpsichore, Erato, Polymnia, Thalia, Melpomene, Euterpe, Clio, Apollo

Arts and Sciences:
Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric, Geometry, Arithmetic, Music, Poetry, Philosophy, Astrology, Theology,

Geniuses and Virtues:
Intellect, Senses, Vital Functions, Temperance, Prudence,
Strength, Justice, Charity, Hope, Faith

Planets and Celestial Spheres:
Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jove, Saturn, Upper Heavens, Celestial Power, Divine Light

Suit Names: no suits

Court Cards: no court cards

Self-reflection

Frater Benedict said:

We can't therefore limit our search to female genii for the virtues.

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We can limit our search if Prudence is always depicted as female. You wouldn't say that we should look for Faith, Hope and Charity in the cards with male iconography, would you? Because they're always female. If they're always female in any other known painting, statue or drawing, then I don't think the deck creators would switch the genders. We have to assume that the ones which are always depicted as female would be female in the deck, and those which can be either would, likewise in the deck, be either.

And the Hermit would make a very nice prudence (the male face that she sometimes has)...but to me he's all about the lantern which sheds light on things. That's not quite it, to me. Not quite that mirror of self reflection.

closrapexa said:

While the HP is a tempting candidate for Prudence, I just don't see it. Prudence implies a certain measure, proper amounts of something. Her two faces symbolizing seeing into the past and future imply drawing conclusions. These things would point to Temperance

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Um...Temperance is Temperance. There are four virtues: Prudence, Fortitude, Justice and Temperance. If we make Temperance Prudence...where does Temperance go?

Although I can totally see why Temperance would strike you as a good candidate for Prudence. They do share that measured conclusion aspect—but then, so do the other two, Justice and Fortitude. They all have that in common. Temperance, however, lacks one of the most important elements of Prudence: self-reflection. Prudence holds a mirror symbolizing that (she also often holds a scroll).

The Hermit holds a lantern, illuminating (I've always liked that definition of the Hermit as being, himself, a lantern, illuminating the world with his inner light), the World spreads wisdom to the four corners, and Temperance measures out and synthesizes. But if the Hermit is a lantern, then the HPS is a library—within her is knowledge, secrets, instincts. Which is why, close as some of the others might be, I don't see them as being as close as the HPS in mirroring (you'll excuse the pun) Prudence's "self-reflection." The HPS pauses and looks inward for answers, and that sounds, to me, a lot like the self-reflection of Prudence.