High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

I suppose you can argue that being prudent, you develop virtues. If not, why not just live life as one pleases? Indulging in whatever one fancies, whenever one chooses to? This is why Prudence is the driver of all virtues, the mother of all of them. I am not knowledgable at all about this topic, and this discussion peaked my interest to find out more. But from a common person's perspective, this is what occurs to me.

High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

I also wonder why Wisdom is the last virtue. I wonder if it is because wisdom can only be attained *after* we acquire and understand and lived all of the other virtues?

One is prudent so one embarks on living life according to all the virtues. And one is wise because one has lived all the virtues?

The Happy Squirrel said:

Thus, her depiction as the World, I suspect.

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True. The World is often seen as the great mother and it would make sense to combine wisdom and motherhood into prudence. Still, the card does come at the end and is as much about returning to the mother as coming from her. Meanwhile, the HPS is sometimes seen as pregnant—one who "gestates" ideas.

Last or First?

The Happy Squirrel said:

I also wonder why Wisdom is the last virtue.

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I suspect (can't prove it) that what Plato was talking about was the Saturn-esque wisdom gained through experience. If you have been a Judge, been Temperate and gone through experiences requiring fortitude, you can draw on all those in dispensing Wisdom (with a capital W).

The idea that Prudence is first seems to be coming from a different angle. I think it relates to a person who wants to be more virtuous. Imagine a reckless kid who says to us, "I'm sorry, I want to do better. How can I be better?" What would we say to them? We wouldn't say "Be Wise like your grandparents." We'd say, "Start by using your common sense...be prudent." We'd urge them, to use what they already have. What we all have. What the Greeks called "practical wisdom."

If I might use the perfect example right before us: imagine a poster comes here, reads something, it makes them mad, and they fire off a response. But then it turns out they totally misunderstood what they read. Too late, their rash and insulting response has other posters firing back; the new poster flees in fear, leaving the thread in chaos and ruined.... (Note: this is a work of fiction, not based on any real event )

What would we have liked from that poster? Well, first, for them to have taken a moment to re-read and make sure they were right about what the post said. To have paused, thought about it, maybe gathered more information before deciding what action to take...to have been prudent. If they had done this, then prudence may have subsequently led them to the virtue of Justice, and deciding if what they'd written back was fair. And, if they'd decided it was fair, then on to the virtue of moderation, where they might have decided to adjust their tone. And finally to fortitude, where they would decide if they had the courage to post the response.

None of those other virtues can be gained if the poster isn't, first and foremost, prudent. From this angle, prudence being the leading virtue makes sense, at least to me.

Thirteen said:

AWESOME!

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Thanks Thirteen, I'm glad you like my ideas. It's a real compliment, especially coming from you, 'cuz I know you know your tarot stuff really well. So this gave me the warm fuzzies.

Thirteen said:

Ah! Is that one of those things where his staff is sometimes a snake? Old iconography seems to do that a lot. Staff and snake switches. Which, as indicated in the story of Moses performing a battle of magic with Pharaohs priests, seems to be a favored trope of ancient times. I you remember, the priest toss down their staffs, which turn into snakes, and then Moses tosses down his. It turns into a snake and eats the others. Not real subtle.

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In tarot cards that I recall, the staff is in the Hermit's hand, and the snake is on the ground. But what you're describing sounds like something else I've seen -- the movie "The Ten Commandments" with Charlton Heston. There's a scene where he's in front of the Pharaoh, and he throws down his staff and it turns into a snake. It's been a while since I've seen this movie, so I don't remember the scene exactly, but I know it's similar to what you described.

In this case the significance doesn't appear to involve wisdom or any other virtue. It looked like Moses was showing off his god's power of life (an inanimate object comes alive, staff becomes snake).

Thirteen said:

You're right that Plato lists them like that, however:

From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence

So, it seems that the idea of Prudence being the first of the virtues goes back to the Greeks.

I fear I don't know enough on Greek philosophers or Roman or early Christian for that matter to understand why Plato's listed Wisdom last of the virtues, nor how to reconcile that with the prevailing view of Prudence as the wellspring of the other virtues. All I know is that, from everything I'm reading on the topic, it seems like most philosophers who wax poetic on Prudence view her as the source and mother of the virtues, not as coming last after all the others.

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Here's my take on it. Plato, in his Republic, tried to lay out plans for ruling a city, or something like that (don't quote me on this! lol). He said that there are three virtues in man - Temperance, Mettle (Strength), and Reason (Prudence), ranked thus (he even compared these to bronze, silver, and gold). These correspond to three social castes and their natures: first the laborers (temperance), next the warriors (mettle), and lastly the princely class (reason). (Perhaps this is why Prudence is last on the list?) Those in each social class were aligned to the particular virtue (and vice) associated with their class. Justice stems from an exercise of these three virtues - a just decision is one made with with basal lusts tempered, cowardice overcome by mettle, and guided by reason. A city should be ruled justly.

Part of me, who wants things done orderly, would have followed the three-tier structure of the majors (arranged by sevens), put one of the each of the three virtues in each tier, and have Justice either placed outside the system, or right in the center of it (like in the RWS, with justice in the 11th position). But that's just me and my OCD.

From a Platonic standpoint, actually, the Emperor would have been a better card for Reason/Wisdom/Prudence. But this doesn't work for me too. I'm drawn more to associating it with the HP or the Hermit, because of the reflection/meditation vibe of these cards - though I still find it odd, because: how come the other virtues get their own titles?!

Just to muddy things up some more: anyone ever considered the Fool for it? Socrates championed the "wise fool", he who knows that he doesn't know enough.

On a lighter note, maybe they took Prudence out because you'll end up not buying yet another deck if you exercised your prudence.

blue_fusion said:

On a lighter note, maybe they took Prudence out because you'll end up not buying yet another deck if you exercised your prudence.

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LOL

This message has nothing to do with Prudence/Wisdom as beginning or perfection of virtues, but is just an attempt to put the historical process of ideas in perspective.

Plato and Aristotle flourished in the 4th century BCE. Alexander the Great conquered the Middle East in the 330's and 320's BCE. An example how Judaism (and later Christianity) assimilated the Greek concept of the four cardinal virtues is found in The Book of Wisdom 8.7:

'And if a man love righteousness her labours are virtues: for she teacheth temperance and prudence, justice and fortitude: which are such things, as en can have nothing more profitable in their life.' (King James' Version)

Book of Wisdom is a book written about 30 BCE by Hellenised Jewish authors, and read by Christians before the 1530's. It is a part of Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran Bibles, but not a part of Calvinist/Baptist Bibles. The Puritans shunned Book of Wisdom, and its inclusion in the Bible was one of the points concerning which Puritans and Anglicans-Episcopalians clashed in the 16th and 17th centuries. So called 'King James' Only'-denominations (occurring in the US) are not fans of the original Anglican-Episcopalian King James' Bible (which include the Apocrypha/Deutero-canonical books) but of Puritan editions lacking the Apocrypha/Deutero-canonical books.