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Etteilla and Variants Timeline II (thread started Jan. 2016)

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Huck  Huck is offline
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Hi MikeH

I think, that very early cartomancy notes should be included in the timetable, as you have already Casanova 1765, Bologna 1750 etc.

Ross Caldwell in "Il Castello di Tarocchi" notes in his essay "Origine della Cartomanzia" ...

1. a police report in Metz, 1759-03-17, to cartomancy activities of two women, page 172

2. Oliver Goldsmith in "The Vicar of Wakefield" 1762-63 ... page 170

3. anonymous opera "Jack the gyant-Killer", page 170

Also he mentioned at the same place Lenthall cards

**************

Myself wrote at ... http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=250160
a few cases of cartomancy, from which I think 2 important enough, that they should be included in your list:

Das Carneval gelehrter Phantasien:
Oder Sammmlung einiger kleinen Schriften zum Nutzen und Vergnügen
Schäfer, 1763 - 148 pages, by anonymous
https://books.google.de/books?id=L9l...karten&f=false

Abhandlung der Physiognomie, Metoposcopie und Chiromantie
Christian Adam Peuschel
1769 - 401 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=S0J...karten&f=false
... a Lutheran pastor with a lot of esoteric interests, but cartomancy he considers as "töricht" (stupid).
He is called a "Wolffian", which means, that he followed ideas of Christian Wolff, a German philosopher.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post

3. anonymous opera "Jack the gyant-Killer", page 170
I reported on it here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...0&postcount=35

Me and Ross later discussed the layout here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...nt#post1435687

It appears to use a grid like layout, significators, and the influence of the cards surrounding the significators.
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Huck  Huck is offline
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Nice, kwaw ...

I found in ...
Wahrsagekarten: ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des Okkultismus
Detlef Hoffmann, Erika Kroppenstedt
Deutsches Spielkarten Museum e. V., 1972 - Fortune-telling by cards - 191 pages
... a note about a Kartenloosbuch in 1543 by Cammerlander. John Meador had noted it once years ago.

I present it in the thread "Cartomancy in Germany".
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php...57#post4598557

**************

The book contains a list with cartomancy expressions, as they appeared in 17 different systems, mostly from 19th century. I took the care to translate it to English

Also presented in the thread: Cartomancy in Germany

These lists might offer some help, when analysing the various editions of PODD !!!!
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Huck  Huck is offline
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I found a passage for "Oliver Goldsmith in "The Vicar of Wakefield" 1762-63 ... page 170" .... it's at the end of chapter 11, I don't know, if that's page 170.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2667/2667-h/2667-h.htm

Quote:
'That I know,' cried Miss Skeggs, 'by experience. For of the three companions I had this last half year, one of them refused to do plain-work an hour in the day, another thought twenty-five guineas a year too small a salary, and I was obliged to send away the third, because I suspected an intrigue with the chaplain. Virtue, my dear Lady Blarney, virtue is worth any price; but where is that to be found?'—'FUDGE!'
My wife had been for a long time all attention to this discourse; but was particularly struck with the latter part of it. Thirty pounds and twenty-five guineas a year made fifty-six pounds five shillings English money, all which was in a manner going a-begging, and might easily be secured in the family. She for a moment studied my looks for approbation; and, to own a truth, I was of opinion, that two such places would fit our two daughters exactly. Besides, if the 'Squire had any real affection for my eldest daughter, this would be the way to make her every way qualified for her fortune. My wife therefore was resolved that we should not be deprived of such advantages for want of assurance, and undertook to harangue for the family. 'I hope,' cried she, 'your Ladyships will pardon my present presumption. It is true, we have no right to pretend to such favours; but yet it is natural for me to wish putting my children forward in the world. And I will be bold to say my two girls have had a pretty good education, and capacity, at least the country can't shew better. They can read, write, and cast accompts; they understand their needle, breadstitch, cross and change, and all manner of plain-work; they can pink, point, and frill; and know something of music; they can do up small cloaths, work upon catgut; my eldest can cut paper, and my youngest has a very pretty manner of telling fortunes upon the cards.'—'FUDGE!'
When she had delivered this pretty piece of eloquence, the two ladies looked at each other a few minutes in silence, with an air of doubt and importance. At last, Miss Carolina Wilelmina Amelia Skeggs condescended to observe, that the young ladies, from the opinion she could form of them from so slight an acquaintance, seemed very fit for such employments: 'But a thing of this kind, Madam,' cried she, addressing my spouse, requires a thorough examination into characters, and a more perfect knowledge of each other. Not, Madam,' continued she, 'that I in the least suspect the young ladies virtue, prudence and discretion; but there is a form in these things, Madam, there is a form.'
My wife approved her suspicions very much, observing, that she was very apt to be suspicious herself; but referred her to all the neighbours for a character: but this our Peeress declined as unnecessary, alledging that her cousin Thornhill's recommendation would be sufficient, and upon this we rested our petition.
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Huck: I did mention Ross's article, except in the online edition in English. However I buried it in the post about Bologna. So I will make a separate entry for pre-1738, at the very beginning giving the links to Ross and Mary Greer there, and your posts about Germany, too.

I think in an Etteilla thread we only need separate entries, as opposed to general links, after 1738. So I will put in the one for 1752 for Kwaw. I already had the 1759 from Ross. I will put in a link to your 1760s Germany, and notes about England post 1738, even though Greer already covers them.

I am unclear about whether those lot-books you mention, Wickram and the 1543 German one, involved cards in particular. I didn't see the word "karte" in your source. Lot-books go way back, to ancient Greece, and were used all through the Middle Ages, mostly with dice. They don't have to be given any special mention, I don't think.
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Rereading Dummett's Game of Tarot Chapter 6, I see an Etteilla deck described I don't remember from our hunts for decks. He says:
Quote:
An even more Egyptianized version is in the British Museum. (28) Etteilla's designs for cards 1 and 8 have been replaced by an ancient Egyptian with a staff and an Egyptian woman surrounded by implements of divination; cards 2, 3, and 5 are lebeled with the names of Osiris, Anubus and Isis, and Apis and Horus; most of the court cards have acquired Egyptian personalities and Egyptian names.
________________
28. F 85 in Wilshire's catalog; cf. F 21 in O'Donoghue's catalog; for illustrations, see Kaplan, op cit., p. 143.
Kaplan does have illustrations of some of the cards. He describes it as "Etteilla (?) Tarot Cards, cica Nineteenth Century". It is labeled "Collection of the Author".

Looking online, I see a couple of cards of the same style on Pinterest, given as "Tarot « Égyptien » - Grand Etteilla. France, troisième quart du XIXe s. Catalogue de l'exposition « Tarot, jeu et magie », Bibliothèque nationale, Paris, 17 octobre 1984 - 6 janvier 1985. Gallica.

These cards are indeed shown in Depaulis's catalog, p. 136, no. 134, which he does give as 3rd quarter of the 19th century. He gives the same page number in Kaplan as Dummett, but Depaulis says it is "B. N. Estampes K. H. 383 no. 274". He classes it as a Grand Etteilla I. All the cards are reversed left to right, he says, and the motifs are Egyptian/Assyrian. No information on date or manufacturer. Have we linked to this deck?
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Do you mean "le jeu de la princesse Tarot" ? In that case it's well prior the 3rd quarter of the 19th century
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Ah, yes. 1843, and I see that it is covered in the timeline on this thread. Thanks.
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Anyone with comments or questions about my contributions to this thread, I can be reached on a blogpost where I have copied this material. They notify me when comments are made. It is at http://etteillastrumps.blogspot.com/2012/05/blank.html
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