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MikeH 
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I put in your date range, Philippe, for vol. 2 of Science des Signes, with a brief explanation of why those dates (see "c. 1806" entry). It is a worthy rebuttal to DDD; I hope it was OK to cite you. I also made a few changes suggested by Kwaw to"1788e", "c.1789 or later", and "c. 1820".

Last edited by MikeH; 20-01-2016 at 20:12.
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Old 19-01-2016     Top   #11
Philippe 
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I wondered if someone was aware of the Oracle des Dames below which seems to be a variant of the Finet

Oracle des Dames 1 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

Oracle des Dames 2 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

Oracle des Dames 3 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

Oracle des Dames 4 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

On this one there are 4 cards taken directly from De Poilly's french minchiate (only 2 in the Finet if I'm not mistaken) :
1 l'Amour
12 La Charité
13 La Prudence
14 l'Espérance (with the anchor)

poi by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

fpe by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

There is also the mythological deck (with playing cards inserts) which seems to match the Oracle des Dames in its five first cards :

DD1 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

Last edited by Philippe; 23-01-2016 at 08:33.
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Old 23-01-2016     Top   #12
MikeH 
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Nice, Philippe. Do you have titles (other than "Grand Oracle des Dames"), dates, publishers, or addresses for these two? And can you say something about their LWB's, even post their pages, or a sample. like first and last pages of the various sections. To me the LWB's are as much of interest as the cards themselves.
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Old 23-01-2016     Top   #13
kwaw 
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According to the guy here:

http://www.carookee.net/forum/Magies...539508;0;30115

The first, which he calls 'Oracle des dames' by Etteilla, he dates to 1797.

It is in German, so perhaps Huck can relate the content for us (better than google!).

Here is his introduction via an uncorrected google translation:

The "Oracle des Dames" of Etteilla

History of Cards
The exceptionally beautifully illustrated card deck "Oracle des Dames" was in the 18th century by the Frenchman Etteilla (1738-1791) designed and made in copper engraving technique at Chez l'Auteur, Paris. Etteilla (his actual name Alliette he led from mystical grounds reverse) used the Tarot cards first Europeans as "divination tool". Until then, the Tarot was only a card game for entertainment. Etteilla was inspired by the teachings of Antoine Court de Gébelin (1728-1784), who laid the intellectual foundation for the esoteric Tarot. De Gébelin recognized with a stroll through the Parisian salons spontaneously the Egyptian origin of the Tarot cards and established two presumptions that are disseminated until today, of which we now know but with great certainty that they are not true:

Accordingly Tarot is an ancient Egyptian Book of Wisdom and the cards were brought by the gypsies in Europe. Etteilla took these theses and published the first rules of interpretation of Tarot cards. In 1789 he issued his own cards, which became known as the "Grand Etteilla".
To give an insight into the mind Etteillas follows here a translation of the original text Introduction the supplement to the maps:
"The Egyptians, our masters in the arts that we have neither invented nor perfected, created a game where create any arrangement of cards that are shuffled by random hands, an ensemble that in the key events and the incredible opportunities gives life to this magical art, now within reach for the world, provides a food for special;. it provides an amazing level of mystery to most things that in the fog of mystery, betrayal, the thefts, the Sorglosigkeiten who Love filter. The magical chains of these powerful feelings that dominate all sensitive souls, here reveals a mystical language to the ancient Egyptians had the key. "

"One day the truth of probability is given birth." - This phrase of the poet Saadi shows the first page of the supplement to the deck from the year 1797.

He then treats the cards individually with their keywords (from its LWB?), e.g.,

No. 1 "Love"

Love is represented as a sliding above the Earth beings. A transparent band covers her eyes, the left hand grasps a flower garland. The bow, which she holds indicates that it is ready to pierce the heart of a man who mistrusts her.
As with all maps, it is important to decide what card it precedes or follows.

keywords:
Love happiness ? (Liebesglück)
lovesickness

No. 10 "Lucina"

Lucina, "the to light Promotional" is the goddess of childbirth and of the Moon. She opens her newborn's eyes and gives them the vision and inner enlightenment. As a map it symbolizes the "look through" of an event, the creative success of a project or even the birth of a child.

keywords:
knowledge
fresh start

He notes as his source: Tarot-Kalender 2007, ISBN 3-930048-49-3

From which I find that they were reproduced by Realis Verlag in a limited edition along with the Tarot-Kalendar, 2007:

http://www.tarotwelten.de/etakart.html

Google translation:

This divination card deck is the reproduction of an ancient decks of cards, which has been issued by Realis Verlag together with a Tarot Calendar for 2007 in a limited edition. Meanwhile, these cards are not available any more. They are designed by the famous French soothsayer Etteilla himself and his late 18th century appeared the first time. The style of presentation and the clothes of the people on the maps do not contradict. Accordingly, they may well be Etteillas lifetime (1738 - 1791) have arisen. More likely, however, it is that these cards were created after Etteillas death and designed on the basis of the so-called Petit Etteilla. Such cards were quite popular in the 19th century and were sold under the French name "Oracle des Dames". However, the custom of Etteilla Tarot cards were sometimes referred to as "Etteillakarten" or "Oracle des Dames". Already at Etteillas lifetime is "Etteillakarten" has become a general term for Wahrsagekarten. Today we distinguish between the Petit Etteilla (small Etteilla), which Etteillas special divination deck is meant and his Tarot, the Grand Etteilla while "Oracle des Dames" and Etteillakarten be used as a general term for Wahrsagekarten of the 19th century, based on the interpretations Etteillas rest. It is therefore not ruled out that the presented here cover easily this time popular name was used.

The deck consists of 36 cards that are numbered, but which do not map title. The card images symbolic scenes and individuals and deities from Greek or Roman mythology.

I presume the poet that is quoted is the Persian poet and mystic Saadi of Shiraz, a French translation of his Gulistan was made in 1634 by Andre du Ryer, and his Bustan and the Gulistan into German in 1654 by Adam Olearius.



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Last edited by kwaw; 23-01-2016 at 19:41.
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Old 23-01-2016     Top   #14
Philippe 
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For the mythological I have only this

IMG_0003 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

The original was in a private collection dispersed 22 years ago. I don't know who owns it now.
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Old 23-01-2016     Top   #15
Huck 
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It sounds, as if somebody had such a deck, and made a reproduction (2007, Realis-Verlag). It was sold together with a Tarot-calendar 2007. It's not available (sold out).

Somewhere the year 1797 must have been mentioned on the cartonage or in the booklet (together with a "Chez l'Auteur"; which sounds, as if this was from Sauveur). The web page author speaks in a manner, as if the old "Begleitheft" (booklet) at least in parts was used in the modern edition.
The motifs are not in all cases the same as in that, what is called the Finet deck. Perhaps we should compare the decks first.
The numbers are exchanged, at least mostly.

***************

I found a theatre play, which used a card divination deck called "Oracle des Dames" (NOT Petit oracles des Dames".

see
... http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php...71#post4579071



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Old 23-01-2016     Top   #16
kwaw 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
According to the guy here:

"One day the truth of probability is given birth." - This phrase of the poet Saadi shows the first page of the supplement to the deck from the year 1797.

...
I presume the poet that is quoted is the Persian poet and mystic Saadi of Shiraz, a French translation of his Gulistan was made in 1634 by Andre du Ryer, and his Bustan and the Gulistan into German in 1654 by Adam Olearius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Somewhere the year 1797 must have been mentioned on the cartonage or in the booklet (together with a "Chez l'Auteur"; which sounds, as if this was from Sauveur).
JGSS makes mention of Saadi in Encyclopedie des Voyages, in connection with Shiraz:




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Old 23-01-2016     Top   #17
Huck 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
JGSS makes mention of Saadi in Encyclopedie des Voyages, in connection with Shiraz:

Interesting observation.

****************

Journal typographique et bibliographique...: Tables
Front Cover
1798 - French literature
https://books.google.de/books?id=tDw...oracle&f=false

... has announcements for the periods

September 1799 till September 1800:
1. Petit (le) Oracle des Dames. Batilliot jeune.

An IX (1800-1801)
2. Oracle des Dames. Gueffier.

An X (1801-1802)
3. Oracle (l') parfait. Blanchon.



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Last edited by Huck; 24-01-2016 at 22:00.
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Old 24-01-2016     Top   #18
MikeH 
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I have added this "Oracle des Dames" without the "Petit" to the timeline as "1797b", giving a link to post 12 here and after. We still have no date for the mythological deck.
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Old 26-01-2016     Top   #19
Huck 
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I took contact to ...
http://www.carookee.de/forum/Magiesc...k/546/31301832
(the Forum, which presented the deck with 36 cards to the web)
... and on my wishes the author presented the article of 2007 (Tarot-Kalendar).

At one of the pages the impression of the earlier accompanying text (1797) is presented. The publication address is again "Rue Nicaise Nr. 513" (as in the text, which was recently presented by Depaulis for the earliest note to the Petit Oracle des Dames).

Depaulis quoting the earlier text: "Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla, jeu de 42 cartes, avec livret Tableaux mobiles des jeux de fortune, ou l'Art de lire dans l'avenir avec sûreté par le rapprochement des événemens qui démontrent sans réplique l'art chronomancique. A Paris, [b]Chez l'Auteur, rue Nicaise Nr. 513. An cinquième / 1797. "



That's definitive the same publication address for a version with 36 cards, and so one can conclude on the same producer, Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur.
The text part "Tableaux mobiles des jeux de fortune, ou l'Art de lire dans l'avenir avec sûreté par le rapprochement des événemens qui démontrent sans réplique l'art chronomancique" is repeated in both versions.

The text "Tableaux mobiles des jeux de fortune" appears also in the announcement collection of Fleischer in 1802. ...



... then used for the production "Le petit Horoscope des Dames".



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Old 26-01-2016     Top   #20
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