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rachelcat 
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Thank you kanji and firemaiden!!!!!!!!!!

I look forward to further English installments!!
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Old 27-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #11
firemaiden 
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Cette théorie assignant aux causes le plan céleste et aux effets, c'est-à-dire aux phénomènes le plan terrestre, n'est pas la seule qui tende à faire supposer que les mineures s'appliquent à la terre.

Nous en trouvons d'autres indices dans leur échelle numérique, dans la hiérarchie des figures, dans le détail des ornements, dans la division du quaternaire et du binaire.

En effet, les 56 lames mineures se divisent en 4 groupes de 14 lames chacun; chaque groupe représente un symbole s'élevant par progression de 1 à 10 et de 4 cartes reproduisant l'élément humain considéré au point de vue social et hiérarchique. Ces 4 groupes correspondent aux 4 éléments, savoir : les coupes à l'air, les sceptres au feu, les épées à l'eau et les deniers à la terre.

This theory assigning the celestial plane to causes, and the earthly plane to effects (that is say to phenomenae), is not the only thing which leads one to suppose that the minors apply to the earth.

We find other indications in their numerical scale, in the hierarchy of figures, in the ornamental details, and in the division of the quaternary from the binary.

In fact, the 56 minor cards are divided into 4 groups of 14 cards each; each group represents a symbol rising progressively from 1 to 10, and 4 cards reproducing the human element considered from the social and hierarchical point of view. These four groups correspond to the four elements, namely: cups to air, sceptres to fire, swords to water, and coins to earth.
---
Si on examine la forme des symboles, on trouve qu'elle se réduit à deux expressions : la droite et la courbe. Les épées et les sceptres sont droits et symbolisent l'action tandis que les deniers et les coupes étant circulaires symbolisent la passivité. Nous obtenons ainsi 2 groupes de 28 lames évoquant l'idée de contraste et d'analogie du binaire.

Les 4 cartes de figure humaine précisent bien mieux encore les rapports terrestres. Elles indiquent l'âge et la position sociale. Le valet sera l'adolescent ou le subalterne ; le chevalier, un homme fait; la reine, une femme, et le roi, un homme marié et âgé.

If we examine the form in these symbols, we find that it can be reduced to two expressions: the straight line and the curve. The swords and the scepters are straight, and symbolise action, while the coins and cups being circular, symbolise passivity. In this way, we obtain 2 groups of 28 cards, evoking the idea of contrast and of analogy of the binary.
---
Remarquons maintenant le détail des ornements qui ornent les lames. Que voyons-nous? des feuilles, des fleurs et des fruits.Ce n'est certes pas au hasard que l'artiste a semé partout le végétal. Sans doute, il aura pensé que le produit qui atteste le mieux la vitalité terrestre est la plante. Le choix du végétal est fait également avec discernement.
Les phases de la pousse : bourgeon, feuille, fleur, fruits sont appliquées aux lames signifiant le commencement, l'évolution, le résultat et les conséquences d'une chose. Là encore, il faut regarder de très-près chaque lame. Une difficulté surgit pourtant; c'est de distinguer où finit le symbole de la plante pour devenir ornement. On sent qu'à côté du symbole la fantaisie s'est donnée parfois carrière.

Let us now notice the detail of the ornamentations which decorate the cards. What do we see? Leaves, flowers and fruit. It was certainly not randomly that the artist wove vegetation everywhere. Undoubtedly, he would have thought that plants are what best attest to earthly vitality. The choice of vegetation is also made with discernment. The phases of growth, bud, leaf, flower, fruit, are all applied to the cards indicating the beginning, the evolution, the result, and the consequences of a thing. There again, we must look very closely at each card. A difficulty arrises, however; that is how to distinguish where the plant symbol ends and the ornament begins. It seems that aside from the symbolic element, sometimes there are flights of fancy.
---
Peu importe. L'indication première nous a paru si précieuse qu'elle nous a servi de guide pour l'exécution de nos dessins conçus dans un sens plus méthodique et sur lesquels nous devons au lecteur quelques explications.

Chaque lame se présente sous deux aspects : la forme et le sens.
La forme s'exprime par le dessin des symboles et par les attributs élémentaires. On a adopté un plan géométrique pour les figures, en reproduisant certains pentacles magiques dont la forme fixe s'harmonise avec le nombre et le symbole de la lame. C'est pourquoi chaque nombre évoque une correspondance de forme qui lui est propre et qui se retrouve identique dans les 4 séries. Le nombre 6 par exemple s'exprime dans les pentacles magiques par deux triangles formant une étoile à 6 pointes. Donc, les 6 de coupes, d'épées, de sceptre e de denier seront tous dessinés par l'étoile à 6 pointes. Les attributs qui ornent les dessins n'ont d'autre but que de rappeler immédiatement l'élément de chaque symbole. Ainsi les sceptres seront dans le feu, les épées dans l'élément aqueux, les deniers dans la terre et entourés de racines ou de jeunes pousses, et les coupes qui sont de nature aérienne, seront ornées de fleurs, de papillons ou d'oiseaux.
No matter. The first indication seemed so precious to us, that it guided us in the execution of our own drawings, conceived in a more methodical sense, and concerning which we owe the reader some explanation.

Each card is presented under two aspects: the form, and the meaning. The form is explained by the design of the symbols and by their elementary attributes. We have adopted a geometric design for the figures, reproducing certain magic pentacles of which the fixed form harmonises with the number and the symbol of the card. That is why each number evokes a correspondance with a form which is proper to it, and and is identical in the four series. The number 6 for example, expresses the magical pentacles by two triangles forming a six-pointed star. Therefore, the 6 of cups, of swords, of sceptres, and coins, are all drawn in a six-pointed star. The atributes which decorate the designs have no other goal than to immediately recall the element of each symbol. In this way, the sceptres are in fire, the swords are in the watery element, the coins in the earth and surrounded with roots or young shoots, cups which are in an airy nature are decorated with flowers, butterflies and birds.
---

Il y a aussi un rapport d'intensité entre la force de la lame et la nature ou la quantité des attributs. Cette correspondance imagée des éléments nous a amené à des rapprochements astrologiques plus précis encore et concernant les périodes de l'année par les rapports combinés de l'élément, du signe et du mois. Ainsi, les sceptres étant de nature ignée correspondent au trigone de feu : Bélier, Lion, Sagittaire, et se voient attribuer les périodes de : Mars, Août, Novembre : mois dominés par l'influence de ces 3 signes. La part proportionnelle de la durée du trimestre (90 jours), à répartir sur l'ensemble d'un groupe de 14 lames, donne une durée d'influence de 6 jours environ pour chaque lame.
Nous résumons d'autre part, le tableau de ces correspondances.
There is also a relationship between the intensity of the force of the card and the nature or the quantity of attributes. This pictoral correspondance of the elements has lead us to even more precise astrological connections, concerning the the periods of the year, by combining element, sign, and month. Thusly, sceptres being of an igneous nature, correspond to the trigon of fire: Aries, Lion, Saggitarius, and are attributed to the periods of March, August, and November, months dominated by the influence of these three signs. The proportional part of the duration of the trimester (90 days) to be distributed over the whole of the group of 14 cards, gives a duration of influence of about six days for each card. We will continue elsewhere the table of these correspondances.

Last edited by firemaiden; 27-05-2006 at 08:24.
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Old 27-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #12
Moonbow 
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Keeping my post short so as not to interupt the flow of this too much, but, thank you Kenji this is wonderful to read along with my Tarocchi Di Vetro, and Firemaiden, thank you so much.
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Annabelle 
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This is simply FABULOUS!!! Thank you so much, kenji and Firemaiden!!
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Old 27-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #14
Fulgour 
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Hello Kenji! Amazing! I knew you'd find it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil
I also really wonder where you could find this book.
Back in 2004 there was a reference to this book in a library
somewhere in Nevada, at a University if I recall correctly...
Kenji wrote me at about the same time I gave up searching
asking for any information~but look now! This is significant!

Keyword: Intrepid

Last edited by Fulgour; 29-05-2006 at 06:34.
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Old 27-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #15
Annabelle 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulgour
Back in 2004 there was a reference to this book in a library
somewhere in Nevada, at a University if I recall correctly...
Yep, I did a quick search of WorldCat and found two copies . . . one in the library of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and another at a university I've never heard of - the University of Leeds. According to their holdings codes, as far as I can tell, only the copy at the U of Nevada is actually available for interlibrary loan-out.
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Old 27-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #16
Cerulean 
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For comparison to Encyclopedia of Occult Sciences minor typed text


Eudes Picards meanings translated into English -- the author listed (but as Kenji points out below, not the translater) is M.C. Poinset. My volume is copyright 1939 in English by Robert McBride and Company in the U.S. Kenji also noted that M.C. Poinset is listed as writing the introduction and may also not be the original writer of the information:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...3&postcount=23

Now you can compare the minors text in French and English.

I have not come across the English translation of Eudes Picards meanings of the majors in English, so this is very welcome!

If anyone wants to buy the Lo Scarabeo's very little-known and out of print book of the Tarocchi di Vetro in Italian, here's one available at Abebooks.com--there's a sentence or two that suggests Eudes Picards meanings were an inspiration for E. Trevisan designs (although she did variations on her deck minors...and the majors are also different than the Eudes Picard pictures--the Eudes Picard majors are Marseilles in style.

Here's the Lo Scarabeo book:

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...i+di+vetro&x=0

I bought the Lo Scarabeo book for about thirty dollars last year simply because I liked the Trevisan's art tarots as issued in 1995...and it took me years to actually find a 1995 issued Lo Scarabeo deck in the smaller, older format. When I saw the newer, bigger format in the late 1990's with the English instructions, I cut up my older deck for collaging and delayed getting the Italian Lo Scarabeo book...

Best wishes,

Cerulean



__________________
Still, cerulean surges...
where, as sunset lingers
Eve with golden fingers...

Hector A. Stuart
South Sea Dreamer, 1886

Last edited by Cerulean; 29-05-2006 at 06:27. Reason: correcting citing of M.C. Poinset
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Old 27-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #17
kenji 
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Hello all
I'm very happy to know so many people have found my post interesting.
I have just uploaded the images of Deniers. (See my 4th post.)

According to the ad put on the book, it seems Eudes Picard published actual packs of 78 cards from the same publisher (H. Daragon).
"printed on beautiful vellum", "hand-coloured" --
How I wish I could see them!


Dear firemaiden,
Thanks for your effort!


Dear coredil,
I bought the copy from a shop in Lyon.
Yes, I was so lucky.

I've modified the links to the tables in my 2nd post.
I hope it will work this time.


Dear Cerulean,
Thank you for the link
You see, the descriptions in "The Encyclopedia of Occult Sciences" are "excerpts", so are not exactly the same as those in the original Picard's book.
And you can find some mistranslations. For example, "larves" in SIX SCEPTRES shoud be translated as "larvae", not "ghosts". (Everything gets clear on seeing the picture )

[NOTE: M. C. Poinsot is not the translator. He is a French occultist who wrote the introduction for the original French version -- "ENCYCLOPÉDIE DES SCIENCES OCCULTES" (Georges-Anquetil, Paris, 1925)]
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Old 28-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #18
kenji 
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I have uploaded the rest of the images - Coupe & Épée.
(Go to my 5th & 6th post.)

These picutures should be kind of interesting to RWS fans, too.
I imagine that Picard's designs may have inspired Pamela Colman Smith to a slight extent: for example, butterflies as the symbol of the Air (COUPE cards) & small silhouettes of birds in the sky (LE VALET DU SCEPTRE) can be seen in the court cards of the Swords of RWS. Besides, the cup in LE ROI DE COUPE and the throne of LE ROI DE DENIER may also...


Dear Cerulean,
It seems that M.C.Poinsot is not the author, either.
The "ENCYCLOPÉDIE" was published as an anonymous work.
(Poinsot says in his introduction, "the author has desired to remain anonymous".)
But there may be a possiblity that Poinsot was just pretending...
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Old 29-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #19
Cerulean 
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Thanks for the corrections and beautiful images...


How beautiful.

Cerulean



__________________
Still, cerulean surges...
where, as sunset lingers
Eve with golden fingers...

Hector A. Stuart
South Sea Dreamer, 1886
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Old 29-05-2006 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #20
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