Fulgour
The Colman Smith Tarot of 1909 is
PROVABLY NOT A GOLDEN DAWN DECK
and Arthur Edward Waite is
PROVABLY NOT THE AUTHORITY.
PROVABLY NOT A GOLDEN DAWN DECK
and Arthur Edward Waite is
PROVABLY NOT THE AUTHORITY.
Not a Golden Dawn deck
Lillie
I really don't know much about all this, and I feel I am stepping into the middle of an unknown conversation, but...
What do you mean by the second statement, that Waite was not the authority?
Of what? On what?
What do you mean by the second statement, that Waite was not the authority?
Of what? On what?
Fulgour
The Colman Smith Tarot of 1909 was followed by a small book,Lillie said:
first published without pictures in 1910, with pictures in 1911.
The small book was by A.E.Waite and in it he claimed to be the
genius mastermind behind Pamela Colman Smith's Tarot deck.
His small book is a collection of pre-published what-nots. Taffy!
And anyone with access to Golden Dawn texts can plainly see,
the Colman Smith Tarot is nothing at all like what they specify.
Cerulean
I actually thought you were talking about Rosicrucian memberships
or perhaps the eventual idealogical splits from Yeats & McGregor, that both Waite and Colman-Smith favored--Waite and Colman Smith did favor a Christian mysticism rather than Yeat's pursuits into spiritualism and Hermeticism...I actually have not read much of McGregor's experiments.
I was reading from Yeats: The Initiate, from Kathleen Raines (a collection of essays on Yeats interesting ideas outside of the mainstream) and the discussion of friendly, but distinct interests from Yeats and Waite was the cause of the split.
So I thought perhaps you were thinking of Waite and Colman's Smith's more Christian mysticisms being unlike McGregor or Yeats orientation in studying or looking at tarot.
But after reading about what even an 'adept' would experience in the lower orders (below the fourth level?), there seems to be some common Western Christian elemental symbolism as well as interesting variations that are suggestive of romanticism with other cultural icons. Again, my one source being Katherine Raines, at this time, may have colored my thinking to generalities, not specific details...so I'm going to try fix this by better study or looking at other sources.
In one case, I've come across that Waite translated texts such as Papus in English--so his presentation of such ideas might seem a rip-off to us, yes, but at the time, he was trying to make a living presenting something 'new' perhaps to an English-speaking public, presumably those favoring Theophists?
http://www.supertarot.co.uk/meaning/papus.htm
(I've learned more about historical Theophists and Krishna Murti in a survey class of Eastern philosophies being presented to Westerners in the late 1800s through 1900s--am still putting together how this 'love of Asian spiritualism' might have blended into such groups around Waite and Yeats)
Someone suggested re-reading Bob O'Neill's information to get a better idea of symbolism in each card of the RWS and perhaps some examples might actually suggest a stronger commonality of thinking between Waite and Smith than detail design differences that struck Smith's fancy to make things feel right to her artistic imagination.
Here is an example:
http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/0.htm
The white rose may refer to Fool setting off on a Rosicrucian journey. Waite was quite fascinated by the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross. He wrote two books on the subject and regarded the Golden Dawn as a latter day Rosicrucian society. The three founders of the Golden Dawn were members of the “Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia,” the inner order of the Golden Dawn was the “Rosae Rubeae et Aurae Crucis,” and Waite’s own revised Golden Dawn group was the Fellowship of the Rosy Cross. Roses appear on many of the cards (Fool, Magician, Empress, Strength, Death) and seemed to have represented a rich symbolic complex for Waite.
He presents extended discussions, with significant overlap, in “The Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross” p 85ff, “Real History of the Rosicrucians” p 11ff and an article in “New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry.” Elsewhere (“Lamps of Western Mysticism,” p 327), he refers to “the beginning of discernment ...which lies within the centre of the Rose of Dante.” He also makes the interesting comment in “The Occult Sciences” that the Rosicrucian symbol “has no connection with the sublime symbolism of the Oriental world: Egypt, Thebes, Eleusinia and the sanctuaries of antique initiation are innocent of its import. It is a development of the monogram of the monk, Martin Luther, which was a cross-crowned heart rising from the center of an open rose.”
It is true the Pictorial Key or Key to the Tarot sometimes only hints at iconography might later be developed (he probably did want to sell his occult books!)...but he and Colman Smith might have been more in tune than not.
I respect your opinions, though, as I'm only starting these readings with a curious bent.
Regards,
Cerulean
or perhaps the eventual idealogical splits from Yeats & McGregor, that both Waite and Colman-Smith favored--Waite and Colman Smith did favor a Christian mysticism rather than Yeat's pursuits into spiritualism and Hermeticism...I actually have not read much of McGregor's experiments.
I was reading from Yeats: The Initiate, from Kathleen Raines (a collection of essays on Yeats interesting ideas outside of the mainstream) and the discussion of friendly, but distinct interests from Yeats and Waite was the cause of the split.
So I thought perhaps you were thinking of Waite and Colman's Smith's more Christian mysticisms being unlike McGregor or Yeats orientation in studying or looking at tarot.
But after reading about what even an 'adept' would experience in the lower orders (below the fourth level?), there seems to be some common Western Christian elemental symbolism as well as interesting variations that are suggestive of romanticism with other cultural icons. Again, my one source being Katherine Raines, at this time, may have colored my thinking to generalities, not specific details...so I'm going to try fix this by better study or looking at other sources.
In one case, I've come across that Waite translated texts such as Papus in English--so his presentation of such ideas might seem a rip-off to us, yes, but at the time, he was trying to make a living presenting something 'new' perhaps to an English-speaking public, presumably those favoring Theophists?
http://www.supertarot.co.uk/meaning/papus.htm
(I've learned more about historical Theophists and Krishna Murti in a survey class of Eastern philosophies being presented to Westerners in the late 1800s through 1900s--am still putting together how this 'love of Asian spiritualism' might have blended into such groups around Waite and Yeats)
Someone suggested re-reading Bob O'Neill's information to get a better idea of symbolism in each card of the RWS and perhaps some examples might actually suggest a stronger commonality of thinking between Waite and Smith than detail design differences that struck Smith's fancy to make things feel right to her artistic imagination.
Here is an example:
http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/0.htm
The white rose may refer to Fool setting off on a Rosicrucian journey. Waite was quite fascinated by the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross. He wrote two books on the subject and regarded the Golden Dawn as a latter day Rosicrucian society. The three founders of the Golden Dawn were members of the “Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia,” the inner order of the Golden Dawn was the “Rosae Rubeae et Aurae Crucis,” and Waite’s own revised Golden Dawn group was the Fellowship of the Rosy Cross. Roses appear on many of the cards (Fool, Magician, Empress, Strength, Death) and seemed to have represented a rich symbolic complex for Waite.
He presents extended discussions, with significant overlap, in “The Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross” p 85ff, “Real History of the Rosicrucians” p 11ff and an article in “New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry.” Elsewhere (“Lamps of Western Mysticism,” p 327), he refers to “the beginning of discernment ...which lies within the centre of the Rose of Dante.” He also makes the interesting comment in “The Occult Sciences” that the Rosicrucian symbol “has no connection with the sublime symbolism of the Oriental world: Egypt, Thebes, Eleusinia and the sanctuaries of antique initiation are innocent of its import. It is a development of the monogram of the monk, Martin Luther, which was a cross-crowned heart rising from the center of an open rose.”
It is true the Pictorial Key or Key to the Tarot sometimes only hints at iconography might later be developed (he probably did want to sell his occult books!)...but he and Colman Smith might have been more in tune than not.
I respect your opinions, though, as I'm only starting these readings with a curious bent.
Regards,
Cerulean
Fulgour
If Waite intentionally wrote a misleading and often incorrectCerulean said:
book on purpose, to keep Golden Dawn secrets, on purpose,
and if he did so after also creating an incorrect and misleading
Tarot deck, on purpose, than what we have is "nothing" at all.
Fulgour
All you have to do is sit down and look at the pictures,
and you are immediately in tune with the artist's vision.
The Colman Smith Tarot speaks for itself, all by itself.
and you are immediately in tune with the artist's vision.
The Colman Smith Tarot speaks for itself, all by itself.
Cerulean
I feel that your sincerity is a wonderful tribute...
...as what I've read of Pamela Colman Smith, is that she felt the expression of art was such a sincerity of sensation...
It is only the expression of myself as a product of East-West questions with a curious bent, that searches for more.
Best regards and respect,
Cerulean
...as what I've read of Pamela Colman Smith, is that she felt the expression of art was such a sincerity of sensation...
It is only the expression of myself as a product of East-West questions with a curious bent, that searches for more.
Best regards and respect,
Cerulean
Fulgour
Let the search continue, for it is the ultimate journey.Cerulean said:
Pause if you must to ponder the magicians of London,
in their kilts and pointy hats but aim at higher horizons.
Fulgour
From another time, another place...
D)))
I'm glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour. ((Diana said:
D)))Rusty Neon
In my opinion, if one takes a look at the Golden Dawn's Book T divinatory meanings and School of Etteilla divinatory meanings, one can see many parallels between those sets of divinatory meanings and the divinatory meanings reasonably discernable in the Rider deck minor arcana imagery and/or listed in Waite's PKT. Compare also the Rider deck's court card imagery with that of the court cards in the Golden Dawn decks (e.g., Cicero and Wang decks).
