Sun on the Death Card

RChMI

Teheuti said:
Certainly a good case can be made for either. I've been reading a lot of Waite's writings and have come to the conclusion that at it's deepest, most mystical sense it was, for Waite, the setting sun. This is the point at which one enters into the "sanctuary of the mystical death" where the sun becomes what is known as the "midnight Sun" that is found in the darkness within. A place where the "darkness deepens ye." The sun is to be reborn as an inner, rather than an outer light.
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The Midnight Sun/Black Sun (Sol Niger) can been seen as that of card XV The Devil, with the sanctuary as that which is through the cave on the far shore that leads to that Black Sun. In The Republic, men are fettered and unable to move in Plato's cave, reminiscent to that of the figures in card XV The Devil. The backround of the cliifs and the cave are also reminiscent of Dante's travails in Hell leading to Purgatory within The Divine Comedy, wherein Dante fails at scaling the cliff face of the mountain and Virgil shows him the way to the mountain top by means of a cave at its base (hence VITRIOL.) As such, the sun can be seen as the guiding/lighting/rising principle throughout both literary works and also that of the Majors. It is the one that uses the cards that makes the descent and ascent travelling through the deck and not the sun itself

Additionally, the silhouette of the buildings/city underneath that of the sun can be seen as the image of the New Jerusalem, which follows the Dantean imagery of mountains in the various other cards, and furthers leads into the Gnostic/Templaric ideals over that of the papal Church in the from of the Bishop. While the Church seeks to engulf the New Jerusalem within the symbolic imagery of the Bishop's miter, it is prevented from doing so by the Knight Templar, whose origins are suggested in the white cross on his breastplate (white cross on black background being that of the Teutonic Knights, which is further indicated by the "viking" longboat upon the water.) If the sun were to be seen as setting, then it would be seen to be setting on the New Jerusalem, and therefore what hope would there be for humanity, as in the biblical sense of prophetic revelations?
 

Teheuti

RChMI said:
If the sun were to be seen as setting, then it would be seen to be setting on the New Jerusalem, and therefore what hope would there be for humanity, as in the biblical sense of prophetic revelations?
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All kinds of associations can be made to the card and it's well worth seeing it as the rising sun for the reasons you mention. However, Waite's mystical symbology centered on death and rebirth. He saw death and descent as necessary before a resurrection - along with a turning away from the concerns of the outer world - a death to all that a person is in the world. The midnight sun, to Waite, signified the Christ-light manifesting within the darkness.
 

rainwolf

And hence ,cards XII-XVI show this descent before the resurrection shown in cards XVII-XXI.
 

Dulcimer

RChMI said:
...the silhouette of the buildings/city underneath that of the sun can be seen as the image of the New Jerusalem...
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Are you sure that's what the silhouette represents? I've always taken that particular scene to be the same scene in miniature as on The Moon. The towers are the same as on The Moon with the same (but accentuated) mountain range behind.
 

RChMI

Dulcimer said:
Are you sure that's what the silhouette represents? I've always taken that particular scene to be the same scene in miniature as on The Moon. The towers are the same as on The Moon with the same (but accentuated) mountain range behind.
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The mountain range between the towres of XVIII The Moon are more sedate and even than that of the image between the towers in XIII Death. Additionally, the sun in XIII Death is singular, whereas in XVIII The Moon it is the Hierosgamos of Sun and Moon conjoined. The sun in XIII being seen as more of a statement of itself, as opposed to a condition of Self indicative of XVIII The Moon.
 

Dwaas

Teheuti said:
Certainly a good case can be made for either. I've been reading a lot of Waite's writings and have come to the conclusion that at it's deepest, most mystical sense it was, for Waite, the setting sun. This is the point at which one enters into the "sanctuary of the mystical death" where the sun becomes what is known as the "midnight Sun" that is found in the darkness within. A place where the "darkness deepens ye." The sun is to be reborn as an inner, rather than an outer light.

This does not mean that it is not the rising sun in another sense. In the descent of the Tree of Life the two towers represent Geburah and Chesed and the light is that of the Sun of Tiphareth rising between them.
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Now that is the best I've read in this thread! I tried to follow this thread but as the discussions raised to high level of science knowledge I had to get off the hook. I am not even sure if I understood everything well if it had been in Dutch :) But here is the solution! I still prefer to see the sun as rising, but it might happen as well in future I see it setting, and that's so wonderful when we have access to loads and loads of knowledge and science, one can always find prove to fit in own choices. And besides of that, a great part of tarot is about intuiton, I think. So I often choose meanings and interpretations which are not nessecarily strictly prescribed by the artists and publishers. The sun sets. And it rises. I like that idea best. :D
Blessings
 

Cerulean

Death on A Pale Horse...one shows Biblical reference...

Perhaps in the context of the time Death Riding A Pale Horse was terrible indeed...if you can get over the giggle of some contemporary image references, there's a few 'classic' ones that might have been in the Anglo-American imagination (including the William Blake and other paintings or engravings of Death as the Reaper on A Pale Horse)

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=death+rides+a+pale+horse&btnG=Search

Given a rather stern reminder of human mortality in the card, the ambiguity of the sun in the distance still reminds me of the passage of time, whether in rising or setting. My opinion would be tempered by the surrounding cards and the reading and person in question.

Because to me, there is also a significant trio of male/female/child figures also in places such as Judgment...so Death and Judgement as pairs in a reading might be a far more sober, serious feeling to the question...whereas if there is a pairing with the Sun card, the appearance of the Child waving the banner and riding the Gray Horse in the Sun card amid sunflowers might give one a more hopeful meaning in the context of feeling.

So I am happy to be ambiguous and flexible for the sun position on the Death card. Having the sun on the Death card to me is much more positive than if it wasn't there...but seeing it in the context of the reading means more to me than deciding with a 'fixed' idea that it has to be rising or setting.

Best regards,

Cerulean
 

job

RChMI said:
If the sun were to be seen as setting, then it would be seen to be setting on the New Jerusalem, and therefore what hope would there be for humanity, as in the biblical sense of prophetic revelations?
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The sun IS setting. What now?
 

The_Star

Setting Sun

Emeraldgirl said:
I have heard a few different opinions on this but does anyone know 100% if the Sun is rising or setting on this card?
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The Sun Card represents the living spirit. In The Death Card the sun is setting. It represents the indwelling spirit (The Sun) being devoured by matter and, in particular, the willfull ego that refuses to embrace 'what is' (refusal to go with the flow).
 
mixed elemental dignities court cards A timeline of the early Rider Waite-Smith Tarot