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Symbolism in the RWS 6 of Cups

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Well, thankfully I don't get to decide, even if I'm sure it wouldn't be. Carry on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife View Post
Well... there seems to be some repetition, and 'inability to hear', if not comprehend, differing viewpoints. In my experience, practical demonstrations can be illuminating, and helpful in furthering understanding. Doesn't have to be a full reading... just where the 6 of Cups has been significant. I'm sure, given the wide-ranging nature of the discussion to date, this would be pertinent?
I'm with you here. When talking about how to read the symbolism of Tarot cards adequately, practical examples are desirable. But then again, I'm not a mod...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I think you are seeing it as a masonic glove to support your idea that the RW tarot cards are full of Masonic symbolism ... they aren't , althought hey may be full of masonic associations for you.
I offered up information to be considered from a book well-known to Waite. All of Waite's books are full of references to Masonic, alchemical, Grail, Hermetic, mystical and occasionally Kabbalistic symbolism. It would be strange if his Tarot did not contain some references to his chief interests. The meaning of many of his Tarot symbols are elucidated in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry.

In fact, Waite says in Pictorial Key to the Tarot, in his chapter on "Tarot and the Secret Tradition":

Quote:
"It [the Secret Doctrine] is contained also in . . . Craft Masonry a living summary, or general memorial, for those who can interpret its real meaning. Behind the Secret Doctrine it is held that there is an experience or practice by which the Doctrine is justified. It is obvious that in a handbook like the present I can do little more than state the claims, which however, have been discussed at length in several of my other writings, while it is designed to treat two of its more important phases in books devoted to the Secret Tradition in Freemasonry and in Hermetic literature."
Note, the boy is handing the girl a gift. In Masonry, the initiate gifts his beloved with a set of gloves, representing "pure hands." She is also wearing an apron, representing a "pure heart." "The investiture with the gloves is very closely connected with the investiture with the apron, . . . both are allusive to a purification of life."

None of this is conclusive proof. However to anyone who has read several of Waite's books on "The Secret Tradition in . . . " the references are clear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I see no reason, plus that belongs in UTC. In fact, all personal interpretations ought to be relegated there. That's what it is expressly for. Why, when researching Waite, should there be any interest in how a card is used?
There is no rule that says that theoretical examples meant to elucidate the meaning of a RWS card (versus personal readings) are not allowed here. This seems to be a ploy to avoid demonstrating how RWS meanings are to be applied. Perhaps some theorists have no idea how to apply their theories of reading, so an example can be educational.

For example, to a theorist who is asked:
1) A 28-year-old married man in an upwardly mobile career wants to know what he should do to get a raise at work.

2) A 35-year-old single woman wants to know why none of her relationships don't last longer than a year.

3) A 45-year-old divorced man wants to know if he should move from Rochester NY to San Diego CA.

He might respond: "Ah, you've received the Six of Cups, the 2nd decan of Fixed Water: Sun in Scorpio. Tiphareth in Briah. Pleasure. The past. Yes, isn't it obvious?"
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I guess I just see it differently. The utilitarian nature of a card is different from the inner meaning. I wouldn't tell a querent what the Saltire means, but to me it is of great importance. One aspect changes with every application while the other has its definite significance and place. This isn't to suggest a card has a rigid "book meaning," but that its practical application can be drawn from its theoretical significance, and not the other way 'round.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
There is no rule that says that theoretical examples meant to elucidate the meaning of a RWS card (versus personal readings) are not allowed here. This seems to be a ploy to avoid demonstrating how RWS meanings are to be applied. Perhaps some theorists have no idea how to apply their theories of reading, so an example can be educational.....
I've seen the following interpretation: Little girls should not talk to strangers; they should simply walk away as the figure in the background is doing.

While that interpretation may be relevant to a specific query, I don't see how it can possibly help anyone better understand the intrinsic significance of the card. It is of no help except possibly to a fortune teller who deals with a similar query. The same goes for the Ten of Swords as indicating that someone needs acupuncture for their back problems. It is an interesting example of intuitive reading, but it is not specific to RWS, and it is relevant only for someone who has back problems.

Such clever interpretations would reach a larger and more appreciative audience elsewhere, as closrapexa (who, by the way, has extensive experience in Tarot divination) suggested.
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Thank you but really not that extensive, not considering the time I have spent on Tarot in general. That being said, the intrinsic meaning is important in order to maintain a certain balance which is important even in a reading.

For example, when it comes to astrology I generally use the method of equating the attributions to the Trumps. By that method this card has an element of Death in it. Now, reading anything from Crowley or Book T any "New Age guru" would (as many have) define Death as regeneration, new beginnings, etc., either to spare their readers pain or fright or simply through imperfect understanding of the card. In many new books the definition of Death is very similar to that of the Fool. Assuming that in a reading Death does not always mean actual, physical death I would indeed use it as a type of new beginning card, but with a difference. But the way Death is used in a reading is a far cry and a pale shadow of what it actually is. All this goes to show is that a card used in a practical setting is by nature simplified and even distorted by necessity and so cannot be used as any kind of authoritative capacity.

ETA: No ploy. I have discussed such things in the past in UTC and even enjoy them there in that context. I can certainly shed my pretentious attitude and go practical, but that isn't what I'm here for. When in UTC, act like... well, act like a card reader. When in the RWS forum, I act like someone who is interested in the cards intrinsic meaning.
Top   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
I offered up information to be considered from a book well-known to Waite. All of Waite's books are full of references to Masonic, alchemical, Grail, Hermetic, mystical and occasionally Kabbalistic symbolism. It would be strange if his Tarot did not contain some references to his chief interests.
Firstly I dont see it as his CHIEF interest.

Secondly no one said his tarot deck is totally devoid of expressions of this particular interest- his J and B on the priestess pillars is readily admitted as the exception here (but not the norm).

[ Actually, I am surprised we DONT focus more on this and its implications as a CLEAR symbol of Masonry in the RW ... I mean it is virtually mind blowing what he did: Between the Holy Pillars of Masonry, in the temple sits the whole dias and the male officers and the Master.

http://2.beltline.ca/media/lodge2.jpg

This is 'men's business' (and technically women should not even be writing about it ... but I dont mind ) , women are not allowed in the Temple and not allowed to become Freemasons.

What does Waite do ? He sticks a woman between the Pillars and on the Masters chair and makes her the HP !

What does this mean or imply? For Masonry (as it is not Waite alone that has done this) and for the RW deck ? I would be happy to discuss this clear ref. to Masonry and its implications in another thread with you Mary, I am sure it would be fascinating and enlightening. ... but back to THESE issues; ]

Thirdly, thinking something is strange or unusual doesnt qualify any supposition of action or non-action.

Forth; even if it was valid, that is what a MASON might give to his WIFE or paramour. Waite said .... two children in a garden with flowers. This is going directly against what is in his book as a description of what is taking place in the imagery of the card. Unless we are going to postulate 'Masonic Children'. Why 'trump' what is inferred from a reading of Waite's many books not directly about tarot, with a clear statement in a book about tarot and that specific card saying what it actually is ?

There are basic point of deduction and logic here that are seeming to be swept under the carpet .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post

The meaning of many of his Tarot symbols are elucidated in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry.

Maybe <shrug> but we are talking about his tarot deck here not his separate work on Encyclopedia of Freemasonry ... unless you can find a direct link in that to Tarot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
In fact, Waite says in Pictorial Key to the Tarot, in his chapter on "Tarot and the Secret Tradition":


"It [the Secret Doctrine] is contained also in . . . Craft Masonry a living summary, or general memorial, for those who can interpret its real meaning. Behind the Secret Doctrine it is held that there is an experience or practice by which the Doctrine is justified. It is obvious that in a handbook like the present I can do little more than state the claims, which however, have been discussed at length in several of my other writings, while it is designed to treat two of its more important phases in books devoted to the Secret Tradition in Freemasonry and in Hermetic literature."
Sorry, I dont get the connection here ? It seems to be talking about the secret doctrine contained in Craft Masonry (of course there is a secret doctrine contained in craft masonry - although many in the Blue Lodge disagree with Waite, on this point, I dont.) Also yes, there is an experience and practice of justification and that is the life of the Freemason and his works, the teaching isnt a nebulous theory, it was meant to be put into practice ... so again I agree here. Yes, and a hand book cant get into the whole depth of all of that. But here we have a clue ; " have been discussed at length in several of my OTHER writings" , ie. not this one, the Book on Tarot . Then he says (I think) in relation to Hermetic literature and Freemasonry (two phases of the secret tradition) exist.

The key here seems to be 'while it is designed' ; are you seeing this IT as the Tarot ?

To me it doesnt read THAT clear . But surely the fact that he says quiet clearly they are children ... if he wanted to show what you claim, why use children ? They are a symbol of innocent pleasure. If he wanted to show pleasure a garden, an innocent gift AND Masonic symbolism, two adults could have been used in the image and there would be no need for the children. Waite said they are children, children cant become masons. The further we go down this road, the more convoluted and 'bent over backwards' things become to try to justify this symbolism .... what ever happened to Occam's Razor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
Note, the boy is handing the girl a gift. In Masonry, the initiate gifts his beloved with a set of gloves, representing "pure hands." She is also wearing an apron, representing a "pure heart." "The investiture with the gloves is very closely connected with the investiture with the apron, . . . both are allusive to a purification of life."
It is a boy giving a girl flowers not gloves, the girl has a mitten on. What? The girl already has 'gloves' but now the boy gives her flowers that symbolise those gloves - that she already has ... sorry but I am starting to see confirmation bias emerge here.


And the apron ... do we really have to go there? Everything I say here about the gloves applies to that. You see an 'apron' ; " An apron is an outer protective garment that covers primarily the front of the body" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apron hers is different. It is as alike a Masonic apron is as is her mittens are alike Masonic gloves ... ie. not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
None of this is conclusive proof. However to anyone who has read several of Waite's books on "The Secret Tradition in . . . " the references are clear.
No it is certainly not conclusive proof. The suggestion that it is clear ( I think here you mean, that the gift of flowers represents the giving of gloves, which she already has) if one has read " several of Waite's books on "The Secret Tradition in . . . " ( several of his books under the one books title ? ) gives one special insight is a bit like ... well one has to be initiated to understand it ... sorry ... if you have read them and have seen a clear connection please post it.

A clear post and clear demonstration of the connection would confirm your ideas ... to say , well, I have read a lot and I know, but if you haven't and I wont explain it, (if that IS what you are saying here ? ) is very ........ 'Waitey'.
Top   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
There is no rule that says that theoretical examples meant to elucidate the meaning of a RWS card (versus personal readings) are not allowed here. This seems to be a ploy to avoid demonstrating how RWS meanings are to be applied. Perhaps some theorists have no idea how to apply their theories of reading, so an example can be educational.

For example, to a theorist who is asked:
1) A 28-year-old married man in an upwardly mobile career wants to know what he should do to get a raise at work.

2) A 35-year-old single woman wants to know why none of her relationships don't last longer than a year.

3) A 45-year-old divorced man wants to know if he should move from Rochester NY to San Diego CA.

He might respond: "Ah, you've received the Six of Cups, the 2nd decan of Fixed Water: Sun in Scorpio. Tiphareth in Briah. Pleasure. The past. Yes, isn't it obvious?"
Oh alright then, I will play with you ... even though I would never give a person a one card reading and offer my interpretation on what it means in regard to a specific question. So, it is the 6 of cups as a one card reading for those 3 scenarios ? Here we go;

1. GIve your boss a nice present ... maybe some flowers, but something that is innocent and will give them delightful pleasure.

2. Maybe they have been expressions of innocent pleasure and you read more into them. Next time maybe be clearer ... say "Thats nice of you, we are having fun, but I am not a little girl anymore and am looking for something more committed and long lasting.

3. Well, if you want to, and it feels right and you have thought it out and it seems the right thing to do ... why not ?


Not that I get the point of this and little girls getting Masonic gloves as a sign of the mittens they already have ... which symbolises ... by the way ... what exactly

If I did, I might come up with ;

1. Join the Freemasons and give boss the handshake

2. ... (sorry I am at a loss to use the freemasonic symbolism for this question - I am stumped! )

3. Oh yes, I hear there is an excellent Lodge there !
Top   #189
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Here is a non-controversial question, I think.

The Six of Cups depicts a bright, clear, sunny day. There is green vegetation scattered about, and there are potted plants outdoors with blooming flowers. The ambience seems to imply late spring or summer. Why then do the children (dwarfs ) appear to be dressed so warmly, as if it were winter?
Top   #190



 


 


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