The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

earthair

Check out 'The Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor' for an insight into pre-modern 'sex-magic' .

And before that , you might like 'Heavenly Bridegrooms' By Ida Craddock. Ida was a saint IMO. A lot of her writings, although 'sex-magical' were also appeals to men to ... well, basically , stop raping their wives.

They locked her up in a mental institution, so she killed herself . :(

http://www.idacraddock.com/public.html

What a terrible story. :(

Not unless you join a silly one.

Actually the OTO was a formation of several societies and numerous degrees that were condensed down to one set, one reason was to eliminate such knowledge that had accrued over time. I mean, there isnt much point to a 'secret teaching' nowadays that the earth is actually a big round ball that spins and travels around the Sun ... and dont tell anyone as they might persecute you.

The thing about Orders, is the order. Grades in order. Rules and learning things for tests. Wear this, memorize that, pay this, attend that and obey orders. It doesn't sound very creative. Do people in Orders have some creative input to the process? Or do I just happen to know and talk to people who didn't like being ordered and left unwittingly just before creativity would have ensued? :joke: *in hushed voice* what if the grades aren't in the right order for everyone? Let's say hypothetically I was looking to choose an organisation. If I can't see what order the grades are in and what happens when, how can I possibly choose the best Order to join?

Thanks for the towel story ravenest :cool2: although that's a mental image I fear I won't be able to erase for some time! :bugeyed:
 

Zephyros

There's always a kind of disdain for the seeming rigidity of a Hermetic order. But there's nothing that can be achieved without some sort of discipline and commitment.
 

Barleywine

There's always a kind of disdain for the seeming rigidity of a Hermetic order. But there's nothing that can be achieved without some sort of discipline and commitment.

The same can be said for solitary practice, and there is no support system for encouragement and guidance. I'd be happy to have even one kindred spirit for face-to-face discussion of these subjects. My wife is game, but she's baffled and repulsed by Crowley-the-person (while loving his deck).
 

Tanga

What a fascinating thread.
Thank you for all your sharing from start to finish.


ON THE SUBJECT OF "seeking the group" to join.
Here's my little penny's worth to share (but for a coven, not a form of GD et al. Oops. Hope "el al" are not offended. Or GD for that matter. :) ):

I read about it and dreamed.
I discovered a favourite bookstore ran esoteric lectures in it's basement, so I attended.
I looked around... nothing.
A year later, I asked around... nothing.
A year later, I asked around... nothing.
A year later, I met a chap running an open circle in the basement of the bookstore.
I knew he must be in a group.
I attended that open circle every month without fail for a year (bending my working diary around it).
I read 'DIY your own group' books, and tried my hand with some willing friends.
I asked the chap running the open group in the basement... he said nothing...
I attended conferences, meetings etc. - listening to all the "coven members" who presented on stage.
I wondered. (wasn't too keen on most of them ;) ).

I concluded - "perhaps there just isn't a group that I am meant to fit into".
I let it go.

A year later I met a chap who was also "looking".
We decided to get together and begin inventing our own thing.
We made a start and it was wonderful. :)

Then... I went to another lecture in the basement - "Interview with a witch".
I heard the witch speak - I checked him out from my back seat. I thought "THAT IS MY HP!".
I asked him. he said yes (wasn't quite as simple as that. I asked and got "I'll think about it" - I waited and wrote 2 letters, I petitioned his friend... I got invited to dinner... etc. He turned out to be the HP of the chap who had run the open circle in the basement that I had attended for a year).
I also found out, that it was "traditional" to leave a "seeker" waiting for a minimum 6 months with no acknowledgement, just to check exactly how keen they were - once they'd begun turning up at the "introductory meeting place"... (the towel, the drain pipe, the open attic window... :joke: ).
These days depending, you can join up for 'the beginning' in some groups by social media sites. Weird.

[And for my friend at around the same time - he talked to a friend, and got into a ceremonial group].




ON THE SUBJECT OF things being "in the blood":

When I grew up, I learned that my mother is psychic - but never uses it due to having dreamed of her bosses death in her twenties (he died as dreamed of, the next day in the basement. What's up with basements???). And also that it's not acceptable in her culture.
I myself am not psychic. But always attracted to all such things. My mother gave me my 2nd name - Clara. (just reading about Santa Clara here on AT. ;) Given the vision to see the mass she could not attend.).
On my father's side - I am named after an Oracle that is still worshiped today. (a Loa is also a good description of her - though the culture is East African.)

Sort of more weird and interesting.


AND TO ANSWER earthair (somewhat) on Orders, Grades and Creativity:
The thing is - as with anything - one first needs to learn the "protocol" or "form".
And there must be a structure with which to teach and learn it.
When one can wear this like a glove - then, one can play and create. I've no idea what leeway there is for creativity in (high magic) ceremonial groups - but I know there's quite some in covens.

what if the grades aren't in the right order for everyone? Let's say hypothetically I was looking to choose an organisation. If I can't see what order the grades are in and what happens when, how can I possibly choose the best Order to join?

- fair comment. I don't know. Follow you intuition?, trial and error (so you leave if you don't like it - like those people you've met). In my case - I "knew" what I was looking for. I recognised it in the face and presentation of the HP by intuition. There are no words that I could put to it. (all those other group leaders I listened to, spoke to, shook hands with at conferences - I can't put any words to why it was an immediate "not with them" for me...).
And when I was in the group and looked at some things and thought - If that were me I would change X and Y. I was happy to bide my time of "going through the process" until I got to the bit where I could then say "Hey! I think X and Y can be changed..."

That's as much comment as I can make.
:)
:love:

:livelong:


P.S.
The same can be said for solitary practice, and there is no support system for encouragement and guidance.

Nooooooo, there isn't. (weep, weep). Just books.
... and intuition ...and "winging it".
(and If you're lucky, open rituals and workshops).


I'd be happy to have even one kindred spirit for face-to-face discussion of these subjects. My wife is game, but she's baffled and repulsed by Crowley-the-person (while loving his deck).

:) Oh. That.
 

ravenest

What a terrible story. :(

It is ... and THAT is very Victorian ... its how things were back then . Ida was a hero IMO .

I even suspect that was what may have happened to my 'weird' Spanish granny tarot crystal ball reader :mad: .... lots of women were put in 'institutions' back then .

The thing about Orders, is the order.

order is part of nature and life, in that realm, when order breaks down, chaos ensues. Or one returns to χάος.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(mythology)

Its the first part if the first 'lesson' or 'knowledge lecture' .

Grades in order. Rules and learning things for tests.

IMO / E , many rules are to protect the members. And in the case where I was examined, I welcomed it.

Like I said about astrology ... I would not want to work on a chart, for days, and then try to discuss it in detail with an 'astrologer' that did not know the basics.

If I do it for someone that has no understanding of the terms and their implications, it takes a long time to explain it all... and I would want to be paid for that.
Wear this, memorize that, pay this, attend that and obey orders.

You make it sound like the military. Why do you think you have to comply with things you dont want to .... no one is forcing membership on anyone ... actually, that is something that gets cleared up at the beginning of the first ceremony, you can not join if you are 'pressed'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment

At any time, you dont have to do what you think you should not ... just leave.

Think of it like yoga, the teacher is saying, do this, do that, dont wear tight clothes.

What ? Do you argue with her ? Do you turn up to do yoga in tight jeans and high heels, do you complain to the teacher that, it isnt what you want to do? I assume you would just walk out and try some other way of achieving 'union'.

It doesn't sound very creative.

That depends how one puts it/

I think the amazing costumes, the stories, the acting, the dramatic ritual, the special effects the ..... are all very creative. I believe our group was so good as we encouraged all this creativity and exploration ... but they were a bunch of 'closet thespians'. ;)


Do people in Orders have some creative input to the process?

Depends which orders and which group of an order. I encouraged it.

But not from any person who walks in the door, and not from someone without an understanding of what they were doing.

Sure .... you can help me paint my masterpiece ... I could sure use some help ... ummmm... you do know HOW to paint though .... dont you ? - If someone says, no and then I offer to show them and they say 'I dont like to be told what to do."

I say - fine ... go away and paint your own masterpiece ... but dont mess mine up.

Or do I just happen to know and talk to people who didn't like being ordered

Its a common paradigm ... it was for a reason, but now it it backfiring on people. It has to do with the times we live in ... and how that energy was misused on people in the past.

Its a big subject and worthwhile of analysis ( I have lived in situations where both applied ... and the mess that ensued from an 'order-less' , free for all , chaos , had a big adverse effect , ecentually on many, their families and children. But balanced rightly and it was a utopian joy with kids that grew up to be amazing !

Here is a snippet from OTO teaching (and and GD ) .

Severity can be unbalanced force that creates cruelty and oppression, and mercy can be an unbalnced weakness that allows and abets evil to exist.

... oe something like that ( my google seach just dropped out )


and left unwittingly just before creativity would have ensued?

Possible .... ya gotta learn to crawl before you go down the hill on the bike 'Look , no hands ! '

... the trained artist again . Ever seen Nureyev leap ? He trained and followed orders and ... and when he lept ... he would just ' jump up there .... hang for a bit ............... and come down :) beautiful, expressive creative freedom !

:joke: *in hushed voice* what if the grades aren't in the right order for everyone?

That isnt that important on one level, some find earlier degrees very difficult, and latter ones already accomplished. Or visa versa . The other side is the crawl before walk.

Also 'revisiting' may not harm one at all. Like in martial arts; I might know advanced techniques , but when I go to session on basics with a new teacher, he might be able to show me some mistakes I picked up, that made my 'higher' techniques not as efficient or effective as they could be.

There are a zillion reasons for this order and many ways the order is applied. For example, no one can sit in the senate ( a body of OTO governance ) without some background in the first 3 degrees ( life birth and death ) ... knowing a bit about yourself ... a degree that serves ones fellows, some life experience, knowledge in a branch of learning (developed mind) and demonstrated ability in physical skills ( like yoga, athletics etc - developed body ) ... because one is expected to be considerate , wise, but not weak ... as one is deciding on issues that effect other people and the organisation.

Let's say hypothetically I was looking to choose an organisation. If I can't see what order the grades are in and what happens when, how can I possibly choose the best Order to join?

I would not join an order like that either !

OTO publishes a lot of such documents.

However, if one doent know, but one thinks one knows ... what then ? One is at the mercy of one's own proclivities. Thats why an objective view or system is needed at times.

I also see people rebel against this in martial arts " I wanna use the nunchuks ."

"No ... you have to learn stability and control first ! "

" No I dont ... look ! <twirl, twirl , spin ... >

CLUNK ! " OWWWWW owwww owie oww ! "

Thanks for the towel story ravenest :cool2:
yes, it did get rather 'cool' there for a while :)

although that's a mental image I fear I won't be able to erase for some time! :bugeyed:

That is just the light one needs to see their Lodge Master in occasionally :)

Genisis 9: 20 - 25 :laugh:
 

ravenest

The same can be said for solitary practice, and there is no support system for encouragement and guidance. I'd be happy to have even one kindred spirit for face-to-face discussion of these subjects. My wife is game, but she's baffled and repulsed by Crowley-the-person (while loving his deck).

The thing is, that yucky side of Crowley doesnt pass over into the OTO rituals he re-wrote.

I mean , there are some things that might offend some people ( the same as there are in a Wiccan coven or initiation ceremony ) ... but ... you know ... 'some people ! ' :rolleyes:

... and there are challenges ... and a trick or two and some humor ( thank god for that ! ) ... but mostly it was great, ethical, advanced and pretty much what he said about it being 'The Holy Magic of Light' .... many a person has left when there was no 'Beastiality' ;) ... or wild sex rites ..... (on has to make them up oneself for later ;) )
 

ravenest

Great post Tanga


thats how it goes :thumbsup:
 

Zephyros

Well, now I know why I got no answer from the A.'.A.'.

I guess I will try again
 

Samweiss

I think that testing a potential canditate by not answering their messages is a bit lame. It may have been good practice back when these orders were actually secret and had to operate underground, but if the orders truly are more open these days, it just feels silly to me.

Back when I was practicing martial arts, our school welcomed everyone with open arms. The teachers knew there was no point in trying to test new student's mettle or dedication because the truth is in the pudding, so to speak.

And here's the thing, it's what we called "beginner's paradox". You don't know if a school or teacher is the right one for you unless you try it first. The initial silence doesn't help with this in any way.
 

earthair

Wow, some lovely though provoking replies from everyone. :)



Cards on the table here. I also teach what I do for a living. It even involves grades :joke::joke::joke: It fascinates me why some people can achieve great things and other drop out at some stage. With the potential drop outs I always see them falter first and at that point they are waving a massive flag "help- the normal system isn't working for me" to the teaching methods I'm using. This is when as a teacher I have to say, ok because the end game is more important than structured logical progression, I'm going to have to do things out of order because this is the right order for them, even if I know that it's going to complicate things. But as a teacher sometimes you have to trust what the pupil knows instinctively. Some people metaphorically can use nunchucks before they can walk :bugeyed: Their potential end game might be better/worse than what I think their end game was going to be, but if you don't allow people full expression in the process, you'll always get clones.

Yes- I think 'testing' potential candidates is not only lame but a complete waste of their time. They might not have that long to live to wait a few months/years. 'Life is precious' and 'no time like the present'. I teach elderly people too and although they joke about it, you can see when they say "I want to learn this today" with earnestness that they have begun prioritizing things, so rigid teaching orders have to go out of the window. Any Order/organisation which doesn't realize this concept of time criticality isn't an order worth joining in my humble opinion because they just don't get one of the most important concepts in life. (Unless they have no spaces in which an immediate no and a suggestion of where else to go would be polite and decent. )