Elemental dignities

Thanks for all the replies. Wow - I've never felt so confused. I only looked into ED as I thought that was what everyonr used. I don't use reversals. ED really confuses me, so I'd rather not use it. Would that entirely change my interpretstions though? In my reading, i picked up on the feeling of being miserable as a result of being left in the cold. I also picked up on the powerful emotions of the ace of cups. Perhaps this person is feeling both miserable and happy - mixed feelings.

Moderator Note

D Sparkles,

You can't have it both ways. In UTC you can discuss EDs in general, but not complete readings. If you wish to discuss the complete reading (and its interpretation using EDs), then I can move this thread over to Your Readings.

You don't have to use EDs. There are many other ways of arriving at card interpretations. Some folks find EDs provide valuable info, some don't. You may find them useful at some later point in your tarot journey.

rwcarter, co-Moderator of Using Tarot Cards

D Sparkles said:

Thanks for all the replies. Wow - I've never felt so confused. I only looked into ED as I thought that was what everyonr used. I don't use reversals. ED really confuses me, so I'd rather not use it. Would that entirely change my interpretstions though? In my reading, i picked up on the feeling of being miserable as a result of being left in the cold. I also picked up on the powerful emotions of the ace of cups. Perhaps this person is feeling both miserable and happy - mixed feelings.

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It can be difficult to blend the narrative scenes on the cards (the people "out in the cold" on the 5 of Pentacles) with the more abstract idea of the elemental dignities. One text I have says to ignore the literal interpetations of the cards completely and just read the interactions of the suits according to element. The idea is to see whether a card is strengthened or weakened by the cards next to it, not to alter its basic meaning. But - at least in my opinion - you shouldn't just stack them up like Lego blocks and say "Two friendly negatives (Earth and Water) together overpower one positve (Fire) so negativity will win the day." Not that you did that, it's just the most simplistic view of the technique. In straightforward terms, the Ace of Cups receives support from the 5 of Pentacles, but loses it's pizazz when it runs up against the 6 of Wands. So there are cross-currents that complicate its actions and effects.

rwcarter said:

D Sparkles,

You can't have it both ways. In UTC you can discuss EDs in general, but not complete readings. If you wish to discuss the complete reading (and its interpretation using EDs), then I can move this thread over to Your Readings.

You don't have to use EDs. There are many other ways of arriving at card interpretations. Some folks find EDs provide valuable info, some don't. You may find them useful at some later point in your tarot journey.

rwcarter, co-Moderator of Using Tarot Cards

Click to expand...

Oh, sorry. It would be good to get an ED interpretation anf then compare it with a non-ED, so yes, please move my thread. At least then i'd spot the difference if any. d. Thank you.

If you find elemental dignities hard to learn in addition to learning the cards, I thought I'd mention what I do with that concept as I understand it.

I just look at the number of suits represented in the spread. If the spread has a lot of Wands but only a few Cups (or none) then there's a lot of fiery energy of creativity or emotions. If there are 4 Wands and 1 Cup, then there's too much fiery influence in the spread and 1 Cup won't put the fire out.

If there are several Pentacles, but just one Wand, then the Pentacles make a solid ground for the fiery Wand to flourish and become stronger. If there is a Sword, that represents air, then the solid ground and air will bolster the power of the Wand's fire.

Maybe you get the idea? I came to Tarot later in my life and I just haven't had the incentive to get really into bells and whistles with the cards, so I know next to nothing about the elemental dignities except if what I'm doing counts as reflecting them a little bit.

Grizabella said:

If you find elemental dignities hard to learn in addition to learning the cards, I thought I'd mention what I do with that concept as I understand it.

I just look at the number of suits represented in the spread. If the spread has a lot of Wands but only a few Cups (or none) then there's a lot of fiery energy of creativity or emotions. If there are 4 Wands and 1 Cup, then there's too much fiery influence in the spread and 1 Cup won't put the fire out.

If there are several Pentacles, but just one Wand, then the Pentacles make a solid ground for the fiery Wand to flourish and become stronger. If there is a Sword, that represents air, then the solid ground and air will bolster the power of the Wand's fire.

Maybe you get the idea? I came to Tarot later in my life and I just haven't had the incentive to get really into bells and whistles with the cards, so I know next to nothing about the elemental dignities except if what I'm doing counts as reflecting them a little bit.

Click to expand...

That's exactly how I did it for almost 40 years, what I call "preponderances and deficits" of an element (I especially look for "missing" elements since they often show where the most attention is needed). I filched the idea from my astrological practice. I learned about EDs when I came here (didn't have the Golden Dawn materials early on), but I kind of treat them the same way I did previously: more as simple (and sometimes not so simple) weighting than a calculation. EDs seem like a specialized application where you apply a similar concept to individual cards rather than the spread as a whole. I can see where it could be used as a replacement for reversals, but I see no reason not to use both; guess I'm too much of a pragmatist to dump something that has worked for me for so long.

Barleywine said:

That's exactly how I did it for almost 40 years, what I call "preponderances and deficits" of an element (I especially look for "missing" elements since they often show where the most attention is needed). I filched the idea from my astrological practice. I learned about EDs when I came here (didn't have the Golden Dawn materials early on), but I kind of treat them the same way I did previously: more as simple (and sometimes not so simple) weighting than a calculation. EDs seem like a specialized application where you apply a similar concept to individual cards rather than the spread as a whole. I can see where it could be used as a replacement for reversals, but I see no reason not to use both; guess I'm too much of a pragmatist to dump something that has worked for me for so long.

Click to expand...

I do that, too---look for what's missing, whether it's a suit of the cards or numbers---like Wands, Swords, and Cups but no Pentacles. Or a series of the same 3 numbers like 3 of Wands, 3 of Pentacles, 3 of Cups but no 3 of Swords. Sometimes even a Major will be in the mix which would add 3 Empress.

I admit I don't understand ED's very well, but "add and substract" approach doesn't make sense to me. Why would you even do a spread if cards cancel each other out - why not just pull one card that actually tells what's left in itself?

However, I do get the idea of weighing the elements and seeing how compatible they are. Cups can water down the Wands and so on. However, I think in balanced life all of the aspects are needed and I don't think the weighing necessarily means "take out something" or discount impacts. It's more about seeing different angles of the same issue and different matters or emotions that all play a part.

I don't think you need to use either, EDs or reversals. Everyone needs to develop a style that works for them. If you get clear messages without either, then there's no need to add something that just confuses you. If you struggle with understanding the cards, then maybe pay more attention to the basics and focus on figuring the suit meanings and number meanings with absolute clarity instead of adding extra levels at this stage (or ever?). There's not one right way to read tarot, you'll find your own, even if nobody else does it the same way!

But then again, I read with reversals because that works for me and haven't really delved into this topic of EDs....

Barleywine said:

It can be difficult to blend the narrative scenes on the cards (the people "out in the cold" on the 5 of Pentacles) with the more abstract idea of the elemental dignities. One text I have says to ignore the literal interpetations of the cards completely and just read the interactions of the suits according to element. The idea is to see whether a card is strengthened or weakened by the cards next to it, not to alter its basic meaning. But - at least in my opinion - you shouldn't just stack them up like Lego blocks and say "Two friendly negatives (Earth and Water) together overpower one positve (Fire) so negativity will win the day." Not that you did that, it's just the most simplistic view of the technique. In straightforward terms, the Ace of Cups receives support from the 5 of Pentacles, but loses it's pizazz when it runs up against the 6 of Wands. So there are cross-currents that complicate its actions and effects.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. I was wondering if two friendly negatives would overpower the one positive! How do you mean the Ace of Cups receives support from the 5 pentacles? Do you mean that the meaning is hinted at by the 5 of pentacles? The Ace of Cups signifies to me a huge gush of emotions (good or bad) and the 5 of pentacles is about being left in the cold. So do you mean that together with the 5 of pentacles, The Ace of Cups hints at sadness? The sadness fizzles away a little with the six of wands. Am I along the right lines?

Grizabella said:

If you find elemental dignities hard to learn in addition to learning the cards, I thought I'd mention what I do with that concept as I understand it.

I just look at the number of suits represented in the spread. If the spread has a lot of Wands but only a few Cups (or none) then there's a lot of fiery energy of creativity or emotions. If there are 4 Wands and 1 Cup, then there's too much fiery influence in the spread and 1 Cup won't put the fire out.

If there are several Pentacles, but just one Wand, then the Pentacles make a solid ground for the fiery Wand to flourish and become stronger. If there is a Sword, that represents air, then the solid ground and air will bolster the power of the Wand's fire.

Maybe you get the idea? I came to Tarot later in my life and I just haven't had the incentive to get really into bells and whistles with the cards, so I know next to nothing about the elemental dignities except if what I'm doing counts as reflecting them a little bit.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this explanation. This makes total sense, but not when it comes to my reading (doesn't make sense to me anyway lol) - only because there is one pent, one cup and one wand card. I'll definitely think about this when I do larger spreads.