Tarot of Ceremonial Magic Study Group - The Magus

Abrac

Thanks for the Kenneth Grant quote, sounds like it might be a good book to have on hand.

The Mercurial Genii reminds me of the Fool's head. The horns are going in different directions but they look very similar. Not sure if there's a connection, it just reminded me of the Fool.

Fool Genii Comparison
 

ravenest

Yes, it seems just the case :)
Your post sounded like as if they are some sort of different entity. Astronomically speaking, the Moon, the planets and the Sun, they are all stars.

yeah right ... and you said you studied astronomy.

I would explain how wrong you are, but then you would probably become mystified and ask :How did we get into this , what does this have to with this thread. All I have been doing is trying to clear up some pretty way off statements you have made as .matter of fact' and then when I do , it is ME that is off topic ?

I will be brief then and say any High School kid can tell you the astronomical difference between a star, planet and a moon. But maybe it was typo and you were tying to say they are similar things astrologically ? if so , and since this part of the thread is a about the THELEMIC concept of 'Every Man and every Woman is a Star' - the difference between 'Star' and what AC consdered 'Moon energy' is very different - read up on what AC thought of the Moon energy ... even just the energy of the Moon Tarot card.

That was my feeling against your writings. Everyone knows what the Tropical astrology is.

Was not that just demonstrated that this is NOT the case ?


But they would wonder why you brought it into this thread, when we are talking about Thelemic deity, Qabalistic Worlds and human consciousness.

You bought it up (see post 106 where I answered you ), it was a passing reference to clear a point you made, then you asked more so I explained it, now you dispute with the info I offer yet again, even though it is common knowledge (for an astrologer ) ... now, you dont like the info I offered in return to your questions and you say I am OT and people would wonder why i bought this into the thread ? ? ? ?

I actually tried to get back on OT ... to the sigils and YOU bought it up again, not me .

In any case , I see it all as the work of the magician , the subject of the card in question;

ie. one part is 'finding your star' ... and I merely tried to clarify that it would be found using a sidereal system as that was what was used in the GD, AA and Thoth system (with some 'corruption' in to tropical astrology with the modern interpretation of Thoth Tarot).

There are numerous threads on this here and in GD section. perhaps reopen one of thise if you want to address this further and you feel it is too OT here ?


By the way, I think your understanding on Tropical astrology doesn't seem right. All Astrology works with stars and their positions and movements, be it Sideral or Tropical. The difference lies in whether they focus on the fixed stars positions (Sideral) or the Suns passage of the 12 zodiacal positions around the earth (Tropical).

Sorry FM, it is apparent that you dont understand the systems involved ... maybe post your questions in the astrology forum here ?


I was just wondering what was your point bringing in Tropical astrology into this thread.

I was responding to you and trying to help you clear up a misconception. Then I tried to get back on topic but YOU returned to the subject. I dont mind at all ... but it seems you do.
 

ravenest

Listen, people... this is getting out of hand. It is impossible to conduct a study group while discussing everything under the sun except the deck. Not every thread can turn into a mega-thread discussing everything about everything. I'll accept that that the general Thelemic discussion was related... but there is such a thing as being given a hand and taking an arm. In the Thoth forum especially discussions tend to diverge more than in other forums and this is alright but at least try to make an effort to respect that leniency and help in conducting these discussions. This thread, as did the previous one, has reached a point where even on-topic posts are swallowed up by unrelated things, and that's not fair to anyone. Twelve pages of posts with only a fraction being actually about the card is not keeping the balance.

Keep this in mind in this and future threads. No posts have been removed... yet.

oops, sorry I didnt read to the end of the thread , I just answered stuff as I got to it .

Hopefully this ^ should bring us back on track - thanks :thumbsup:
 

ravenest

Thanks for the Kenneth Grant quote, sounds like it might be a good book to have on hand.

The Mercurial Genii reminds me of the Fool's head. The horns are going in different directions but they look very similar. Not sure if there's a connection, it just reminded me of the Fool.

Fool Genii Comparison

Maybe it is type of reverse magician ? Are these 'qlipthothic' images the 'bad side' of the magician, the magical path unbalanced.

Have we got to what the decks author says about them (beyond mere descriptions of them) ?

Looks like I am going to have to get off my fat **** and stagger over to the bookcase ....

< I'll be back ! >
 

Aeon418

Are these 'qlipthothic' images the 'bad side' of the magician, the magical path unbalanced.

Yeah. Sort of. In the same sense that the Tarot is a map of the magical path, complete with balanced and unbalanced aspects.

The titles to Liber XXII make it clear what the sigils are.

Liber XXII Domarum Mercurii Cum Suis Geniis. "The Book of the Houses of Mercury, with Their Own Spirits. (Houses of Mercury = Tarot Trumps) These are the spirits of the Tarot in their balanced form.

Liber XXII Carcerorum Qliphoth Cum Suis Geniis. "The Book of the Prisons of the Qliphoth, with Their Own Spirits" These are the unbalanced manifestations of the 22 Trump cards.

The regular interpretations of the trumps are a mixture of both of these positive and negative aspects. In a way this runs counter to some interpretations that try to place the Qliphoth on a separate or reverse side of the Tree of Life. Here they are presented as one continuum.

Liber Arcanorum is a sort of commentary on the Mercurial sigils.
 

ravenest

Thanks Aeon. It appears I have loaned out my cards and book - not there.

I cant remember what LMdQ says in the book about his including of them on the cards.
 

Aeon418

I cant remember what LMdQ says in the book about his including of them on the cards.
I've just had a quick skim through. All I can find is a single paragraph on page 18. Lon basically describes what the sigils are, where they come from and how they match up to the 22 trump cards. But we know that much already.

The only bit of interpretation is at the end where Lon describes the Mercurial spirits as "each Trump's representative agent of transmission". And the Qliphotic sigils provide the "key which can lock up the troublesome or destructive opposition to that transmission."

"Together these symbols demonstrate the entire magical spectrum of influence represented by the card - the genii of the Atu standing guard over the prison of the qliphoth."

And that's it as far as Lon is concerned.
 

Aeon418

I wonder what Crowley would make of Lon's decision to place the sigils on Tarot cards? Crowley's original sigils were re-drawn for publication by J.F.C. Fuller. A note in Crowley's hand tells Fuller not to leave the sigils laying around because they are "dangerously automatic". Don't stare at the cards, kids! :bugeyed:

I would have liked to have heard Lon's reasoning behind his decision to swap the Heh and Tzaddi sigils around. More double loop fun! :eek:
 

Zephyros

Um, sorry if this is a blindingly obvious question but what are they for?. I couldn't find any either primary or secondary sources about them (although that doesn't mean anything), and people I asked around on groups on Facebook didn't have a clue either. This deck is aimed at a specific niche of people, ceremonial magicians, who would find it useful. The answer can't be to just add more symbolism to a Tarot card, that would make the deck a waste of time. Personable as Duquette is, he isn't always completely forthcoming, especially when higher order stuff is discussed. But I would find it hard to believe he would go to all the trouble of creating this deck with the sigils being its main feature and not have any idea of how they would be used.

Are there any publicly published rituals using them? Would they be used to summon "demons" like in the Abramelin?
 

Aeon418

Um, sorry if this is a blindingly obvious question but what are they for?.
All these 'spirits' correspond to aspects of yourself. With their names and sigils you've basically got a telephone directory to those parts of yourself. You can ritually invoke the spirits for purposes that conform to their natures, and thereby strengthen that part of yourself. (Or at least make yourself more aware of it.) You could skry the sigils and gain knowledge by way of vision that increases your personal understanding of a particular card/path. The Mercurial sigils could even be used as talismans.

Another possible use may be diagnostic. When you start working with any balanced sephiroth or path(card) the corresponding unbalanced (qliphothic) aspect within yourself will tend to rise to the surface and begin to manifest in your life. In a way it's like a purge. You externalise this hidden crap so you can begin to recognise it, deal with it and ultimately reintegrate it. Having the name and sigil of the guy that's playing hell with you can come in real handy.

Having said that I would be very careful about messing around with the qliphotic sigils just out curiosity. Stirring up your own unacknowledged toxic sh*t without the means to handle it is probably not a good idea. That may be what Crowley's warning to Fuller was about. Why go looking for trouble when it will come and find you as a natural byproduct of the work.

It should also be pointed out that Liber Arcanorum doesn't appear in the A.'.A.'. curriculum until Practicus 3=8. And a full exploration of the qliphoth is the work of an Adeptus Major who has already acheived K&C and is ready to let the light of that relationship shine into the dark corners of his/her being.