My attempt at an electional chart, and an associated horary chart

I've been reading up (online, no books yet) on electional astrology, and decided to make an electional chart for a 'magic' ritual evoking the assistance of Mercury (who is the ruler of my chart, I use Sidereal charts, with the Fagan Bradley ayanamsha) and possibly making a talisman.

After some going back and forth with my ancient version of Solar Fire, I came up with a time.

Then I had the idea of asking my friend, who is learning horary, first from Anthony Louis, now working through Lilly, a related question "Will this experiment be successful?"

the chart details and analyses (strictly amateur) are as follows

Me: find a good time to do a Mercurian evocation ritual/act of worship of an appropriate diety and make a planetary talisman.

Place: Bangalore, India , 12 N 59, 77 E 35
Time I came up with: Wednesday, October 05, 05:10 hours IST (24 hour format) for start of ritual
Zodiac: Sidereal, Fagan/Bradley
House System: Placidus

Chart analysis (this is all strictly amateur, please feel free to rip to shreds, I have no ego involved in this and glad to learn anything from anyone)

Mercury rising, exactly on the ascendant, in Virgo, so in domicile and exalted.
Jupiter in the 1st. In detriment, but seems to be a good situation since Lord of Domicile Mercury is strong.
Mercury rules 1st and 10th. Jupiter rules 4th and 7th (and in the 1st). So all angles seem to be ruled by benefics.
Moon almost conjunct Venus, not void of course, but is waning, so maybe not so good.
Lord of the 9th (house of religious ritual) is in its own house conjunct the Moon.

Sun is peregrine, not so good. Adding the planets Uranus through Pluto gives us some nasty aspects. Uranus loose square Pluto for example. Not sure if these are relevant.

Overall looks like a decent chart for a Mercury ritual.

Lesson learned:
1. It is impossible to get all factors to be optimal. I think in practice, astrologers make two or three major factors work and then go with what results. I haven't read any books on electional astrology yet, but will soon.

2. I wonder if the electional chart shouldn't also 'sync' with the natal chart of the ritualist. By Morinian logic, this would be a prime consideration. This chart is 'universal' in the Morinian sense in that it assumes a ' good moment' via the configuration of planets in the sky is good for everyone on Earth. Hmm. Confused.

My friends horary response to the question: "Will this ritual/expeiment be successful?"

Chart Details:
Place: Bangalore, India
Time of clarification of question, so he understood my intended meaning: Monday, October 03, 23:08 IST
Zodiac: Tropical
House System: Placidus

Chart analysis (amateur, as above, feel free to correct mercilessly)

"The querent is signified by Moon (Cancer rising). The question may be premature, but Moon is the Lord of Cancer, the ascendant of the Querent's (Tropical) natal chart. So I'll move on nonetheless.

The question is about the success of a religious ritual. I'd placed this in the 9th house (Aquarius)
The question is signified by Saturn and Neptune (present in the 9th house).

The seventh house contains Mars at 4° Capricorn. This is exalted, represents the astrologer. (I have Mars conjunct the 1st house in my natal chart, so this matches)

Capricorn in the 7th house cusp (00°), and Pluto in the 7th (14° Capricorn) can indicate a
restriction placed on the astrologer per Anthony Louis. Caveat Emptor

Moon is not void of course, and therefore capable of performing. The Moon is in the Via Combusta.
This is not a major factor provided other things look good.

There is no aspect between Moon and Saturn. There is a a Trine between Neptune and Moon, indicating that the ritual will succeed.

Moon will conjunct a benefic Venus in < 2°. This is also indicative of success. The time frame is ~1 day.

The fourth house of the question is the 12th of the chart. Part of fortune is conjunct this house.

This seems to confirm the judgement. "

I don't know how to insert charts into my posts, but if the above details aren't enough, I'll make an attempt.

As I said above, both attempts are by obvious amateurs, and not sophisticated or effortless analyses like the ones delineated by expert astrologers like Minderwiz and dadnsook!


Any feedback, no matter how minor, appreciated.
Thanks in advance

Very Interesting

I have to say that Elections are not my area ,no any comments will be just as amateurish as yours. I'll do some reading and get back to you on that.

On your two 'lessons' :

One f the reasons I've not pursued Elections is the lack of control over the event - despite its name, I ant have elective surgery at a specific time of my choosing, nor can I meet with the bank manager at 01:13 precisely to invest my £150 lottery winnings in particular stocks and shares, and even ifI could, the Stock Exchange isn't open then.

And yes compromising on one thing can lad to a worsening of another, so the chart is never perfect.

Secondly you are the prime participant, the chart would also have strong positive links to you, for example, your Ascendant ruler could be strongly placed.

The use of Fagan/Bradley isn't a problem (except for me remembering it when I make further comments). You're not trying to use the methods of any traditional Astrologer, so you can use your own preferred approach. My personal feeling is that we shouldn't try out the methods of traditional Astrologers, whilst using anachronistic methods.Thts one of the reasons I don't use the outers (and that I've found they add little of value anyway).

I your friend is following Louis, then he should be using Regiomontanus and not using the outers. Louis is quite specific on those points. I think your friend will find that the house system makes little difference. From experience, I've ditched the outers, as I said above. Once he knows the techniques backwards he can start trying variations.

BTW you can export chats from Solar Fire as JPEG format and these can be uploaded through manage attachments but I find giving the details as you have done in this post is easier for me , as I like to create my own versions.

ROTFL at the stock exchange example!

On your second point that the chart should have strong links to my natal chart, Thank You for that, I'm glad to have my newly acquired (if shaky) Morinian instincts validated! Mercury is the lord of my chart (in the Fagan/allen chart) so that part (connection to natal) should work at a simple level.

Yes I use Fagan/Bradley strictly for my personal work. It is the first 'non fluff' astrology I encountered when I was trying to shake my 'new age' astrology 'knowledge' and it worked (works) surprisingly well for prediction. It is still a bit too psychology based for my liking, but the sidereal angles and solar/lunar returns based prediction techniques work really well in my limited experience. I've been able to time precise days when people got divorced, underwent surgery , had beloved pets die etc just from their charts and using solar/lunar returns, which, given my lack of real astrological skill, I attribute to the technique.

As a bonus, after grasping the fundamentals of this approach, I was able to read dadsnook's books and figure out what he was saying, and how his approach differs from the 'classical' Faganians (is that a word? it should be!), while capturing the essence of their insights.

I also agree with your idea that when learning from a particular author or teacher, you should embrace his methods. Thus, while learning from Morin's books, I am using the Tropical Zodiac, Regiomontanus houses etc, just as he did.

My friend was quite adamant that AL does use Uranus+ planets. I noticed his use of Uranus etc and asked him if that was valid. Fwiw he learned from Louis's old (now out of print brown cover) book with 600+ pages, not his simplified new edition, so it maybe that in that book AL does use modern planets. I'll ask him when he wakes up (It is early in the morning here in India and he is a heavy sleeper lol)

You might want to look at the work of Thabit ibn Qurra or Picatrix for advice on magical elections.

@Chanah

Do you have experience with either? I find it hard to discern what is fluff and what actually works in practise, when it comes to these 'magical' books. People on some reddit forums reccomended the Picatrix to me, but on further enquiry, they weren't practitioners and in a couple of cases hadn't even read the book they were reccomending!

Due Disclosure: I don't believe in 'magic' at all. I don't necessarily disbelieve it either. The above is just an *experiment* to see if such electional rituals work despite my lack of faith. Fwiw I don't 'believe' in astrology either, but I'm willing to try any technique to see if it works. Sideral Solar and Lunar returns seem to work reliably (so far), in spite of my lack of belief in them!

RohanMenon said:

My friend was quite adamant that AL does use Uranus+ planets. I noticed his use of Uranus etc and asked him if that was valid. Fwiw he learned from Louis's old (now out of print brown cover) book with 600+ pages, not his simplified new edition, so it maybe that in that book AL does use modern planets. I'll ask him when he wakes up (It is early in the morning here in India and he is a heavy sleeper lol)

Click to expand...

I wrote my comment from faulty memory. I checked my copy of AL and he does use the outers, so Mea Culpa.

At the time Louis seems to have been largely influenced by Joan McEvers and Marc Edmund Jones. I've read both works and I was underwhelmed. I did laugh when McEvers claimed that Pisces had become much more Neptunian since classical times, as though that was a cosmological change rather than the redefinition by New Age Astrologers who had lost their way.

Yeah I did look at the AL book my friend owned

and while he does write very clearly (something most modern astrological writers could emulate, cough Liz Green, Sasportas , Forrest, cough), in the end I decided to learn from the 'old masters' - Morin (natal/predictive) and now Lilly (for Horary) and later the Greeks/Arabs and probably Vedic some day, far in the future.

I can't put my finger on why his books didn't attract me, the fault is probably mine, but I didn't get the "deep and solid" feel I get when I read Morin or Lilly. To repeat, just a subjective impression I have, for all I know AL is right in everything he says. (but the McEvers fascination etc explains a lot heh)

That said, I've had some success predicting with Neptune *when it is exactly conjunct the angles* (and not otherwise) so there is something there, in my (very limited) experience, but it is probably just that I don't have enough depth in traditional astrology, which would enable me to work with just the 7 classical planets and reach the same conclusion.

As I mention above, my post new age 'base' is Faganian Sidereal astrology, which starts from angularity and strictly partile aspects, and I believe firmly that accurate prediction (and not psychobabble about past life influence or psychological complexes or whatever newage fads are current) is the metric for astrology.

I'll happily use whatever works, by that metric. I'm learning a *lot* from Morin, and hopefully from Lilly (I just started reading, and am about 50 pages or so into Vol 1)

There's an argument for the Third House for the ritual. The third is opposite the ninth and is the Joy of the Moon. In Hellenistic Astrology its the house of tthe Queen and has asociations with 'unofficial' religions and beliefs. The religions that could be described as nocturnal because they are not conducted openly and with public ceremony - not like the prevailing religion

That identification seems to have dropped out under Christianity, when it metamorphosed into Witchcraft and was assigned to the twelfth house. Personally, I would would not consider the twelfth at all, in this horary.

Well, I've just cast the chart for the horary. If I were doing it, as I use Whole Sign Houses,t he third house is Virgo, in which sirs Mercury in both Domicile and Exaltation. So the ritual is very strong. The Moon isin the fifth houe house of Scorpio. It's a night chart, so Moon has dignity as the cooperating Triplicity ruler (though not much). The fifth is the House of Good Fortune and the Joy of Venus. The Moon is applying closely to a conjunction with Venus, the benefic of sect and is not afflicted by the out of sect malefic, Saturn.

There is a reception by Sign and separating sextile with Exalted Mars in Capricorn (the Hellenistic Astrologers gave the Moon 13 degrees, it's average daily motion). Mars is also the Moon's last aspect.

So you are strongly placed, with good essential dignity and the support of both the Domicile ruler and the benefic of sect. After Venus the Moon's next aspect is to Mercury, the ritual. However that application has not begun.

If the question was 'Will the ritual be performed? 'my answer would be that it would very probably not be, the conjunction of the Moo with Venus would prohibit it. The reality would be that affairs of the home or family or friends would get in the way (Venus rules the fourth and eleventh houses).

If the question was 'Is this a good ritual for my purpose?' then the answer is Yes!

*Very* interesting Minderwiz

So would occult/mystery 'paths' of self development (say tantra or Golden Dawn or whatever) fall under the third house? wow! I can see how that works, with the public religions taking the 9th.

that should change the horary outcome for sure!

EDIT: I am no expert on horary, but I started following your DIY thread here. So the next step would be to consider the lord of (and any contents of?) the third house. So (using Tropical, Placidus as my friend did) this is the Sun (Mercury is exactly the 4th cusp so should count as being in the 4th).

The sun has no essential dignity and is peregrine and fallen (so answer = no?), but seems to have decent accidental dignity (in the 4th, loosely conjunct Jupiter and with the lord of the 4th in the 4th and exalted).

If the Moon represents the querent, and the Sun represents the query, there is a semi sextile aspect between them, which shows a weak harmony? But otoh is the semi sextile a valid aspect for horary? Also the Sun conjuncts (by moeity) Jupiter and the Moon conjunct Venus.

The third also contains the North Node (are the nodes used in horary)?

And that is all I've learned so far from your DIY horary thread !

RohanMenon said:

So would occult/mystery 'paths' of self development (say tantra or Golden Dawn or whatever) fall under the third house?

Click to expand...

Yes! And also Tarot and all forms of divination, except Astrology. Even in Medival Christian Europe, Astrology was accepted by Church and State because of it's link to medicine. That didn't mean that judicial Astrology was always acceptable.

RohanMenon said:

....that should change the horary outcome for sure!

....I am no expert on horary, but I started following your DIY thread here. So the next step would be to consider the lord of (and any contents of?) the third house. So (using Tropical, Placidus as my friend did) this is the Sun (Mercury is exactly the 4th cusp so should count as being in the 4th).

The sun has no essential dignity and is peregrine and fallen (so answer = no?), but seems to have decent accidental dignity (in the 4th, loosely conjunct Jupiter and with the lord of the 4th in the 4th and exalted).

If the Moon represents the querent, and the Sun represents the query, there is a semi sextile aspect between them, which shows a weak harmony? But otoh is the semi sextile a valid aspect for horary? Also the Sun conjuncts (by moeity) Jupiter and the Moon conjunct Venus.

The third also contains the North Node (are the nodes used in horary)?

And that is all I've learned so far from your DIY horary thread !

Click to expand...

Things are different using Placidus than my brief review that I added to my previous post.

Whereas Mercury rules the third under Whole Signs, the Sun rules it under Placidus or Regiomontanus. This isn't the place to go into house systems pros and cons, so let's consider the Sun as third house ruler.

Sun is in Libra, it's Fall, which casts some doubt on the efficacy of the ritual.but the conjunction with Jupiter more than compensates, The Sun is in an applying Sextile to Saturn, the exaltation ruler, so it has support in it's position.