The Visconti - and the Marseilles

ihcoyc

Cerulean said:
ihcoyc's reply about the the people's tarot:
"My own political and religious instincts are such that I react with an almost instinctive negativity to hierarchy, class, and authority... I want the "people's Tarot."

I had a curiousity why some tarots and playing cards turned to mythology at certain periods of time and wondered how the seeds of the French Revolution permeated the costume and choice of characters on certain decks...

This specialty playing card manufacturer suggested some European cards around 1792 had figures based more on agrarian figures or mythology because of French influence:

http://www.mthoodcards.com/cgi-bin/europe.py?file=pre/countrev

Interesting site. I know that in some book or another I can remember seeing a French Revolutionary era Tarot in which the Emperor and Empress were not present, and instead became "Grand-mère" and "Grand-père". IIRC, this may be the same deck that had the Le Pape and La Papesse renamed "Grand-prêtre" and "Grand-prêtresse," and turned Le Pendu into "Prudence," following Court de Gebelin.
 

noby

Diana said:
It's as if the Visconti or the Cary Sheets were just snippets of something - like ingredients perhaps that were taken from right and left, inspiration possibly and also probably.... but it was the MIXTURE of these ingredients that gave rise to The Tarot of Marseilles. Before then, The Tarot had no precise form nor definition. So we're not talking cards here, we're talking Tarot.

It is so hard to explain (for me).

I think you're being too hard on yourself; I think you explain it rather eloquently, and it makes sense to me. What you're saying is that there are traces of what would become the tarot in decks like the Visconti, but the Marseilles was the first to congeal it all into the system (numbered trumps, right number of cards) that the RWS and all subsequent tarot divination decks were based upon. As such, you make an eloquent point about how the Marseilles can be seen as the "blueprint."

The observation that the Marseilles as a congealing of earlier elements is an interesting one. And I personally am more spellbound by these even earlier elements. I have gained a lot of insight into the tarot by studying the Mantegna deck online. I think that the organization of this pre-tarot deck helps explain how the particular set of trumps that originally involved came into place: some drew from depictions of types of people in medieval society, others from depictions of virtues, others from depictions of cosmic and metaphysical phenomena. It is so interesting to me how these disparate elements were molded and shaped into a set of trumps that can be seen as a connected progression, a single journey. To some, the magic is in seeing the elements before they were mixed; to others, the magic is in seeing how they were first mixed into the recipe with which we are now familiar.

I understand the appeal of looking into the origins of things. As a student of Zen, I have been interested in studying the original teachings of Bodhidharma, the founder of Zen, and the original teachings of the Buddha. Yet it is interesting to make this comparison between Zen and the tarot. Zen is the experience of the awakened mind, and saying that Bodhidharma's Zen is "Ur-Zen" might make sense in a historical view, but actually, anyone who expresses the experience of Zen is expressing "Ur-Zen," because the essence of Zen is not contained in any single person or event, but the universal quality of awareness that each individual experiences very differently.

The foundation of Zen can be said not to be a historical event or historically dated teaching, but something that is touched upon by each person who realizes it. Same with the tarot - those who have experiences like CharmingPixie's could be said to have an experience of "Ur-Tarot." But as RustyNeon points out, many have had those experiences with decks other than the Marseilles. So I think it depends upon the view one is taking of tarot. I think Diana makes an eloquent case for Marseilles being the "Ur-Tarot" in a historical sense. But in the sense of the experiences people have using the tarot for divining or exploring archetypes, "Ur-Tarot" is an experience that can happen with any deck.

And I agree with Moongold that one of the things I find most troubling about the idea of working exclusively with the Marseilles (or the Mantegna, Visconti, Waite-Smith, and Thoth, for that matter) is that the tarot, to me, is an expression of universal human archetypes, and focusing on a deck that is primarily white does not express the universal to my eyes.

To me, "Ur-Tarot" in a more philosophical and less historical sense, is something not contained in any one deck. It is a set of very communicative archetypes which can be drawn upon and expressed in countless ways, and no one way captures it completely. In the same way, "Zen" to me is not Bodhidharma's teaching, but what happens on the meditation cushion, which varies from person to person.
 

smleite

Noby, I liked your post a lot. But I have to say this…

When Moongold said, to your agreement, that the Marseilles, being “primarily white Caucasion” does not express the universal, this reminds me of something I wanted to clarify. I wrote that what I see in the Tarot of Marseilles is the more adequate presentation of Tarot’s structure, and I wrote it like this for a reason. Let me detail my reasoning a bit further: I meant that Tarot has its own, unique way of presenting a structure that, ultimately, is universal, but is presented to Men in multiple ways. Each “School of the Soul”, allow me to use this term, has a unique way of presenting it. What matters here, at least to me, is that each way of presenting this structure is perfect in itself (otherwise it does not refer to the archetypical divine structure). But, even if I think that particular structure should be considered as equivalent to any other that fills the same requisites, I also think they don’t have to make concessions to the others. That is, the Buddhist path’s inner structure, which is probably absolutely equivalent to the one a Christian will find if engaged in a serious and conscious practice, doesn’t have to make concessions to the Christian way of seizing the World. Okay, let’s say you have achieved a good level of knowledge, and you are a Buddhist – you will look to a serious Christian practice and SEE the various inner stations our soul also walked in your practice. But you are not a Christian, you are a Buddhist, your practice clearly developed in the Orient, destined to the specific conditions of the Eastern mind and reality – I’ve seen Buddhist masters, teaching in Europe, saying that the Western mind is very difficult to calm down, for instance, and that most exercises they teach were conceived to another kind of predisposition. Of course, you can entrain as a Buddhist, with plenty of success, because your personal disposition leads you to Buddhism above all other ways, but you will have to conform to their teachings and ways, isn’t it? It is not Buddhism that has got to conform to you! Tarot, as I see it, is a Western creation, even if plenty of exterior influences (so many things in Europe developed under Greek or Muslim influences, for instance)… But Tarot is, by nature, a white, occidental construction. What is the problem with that? I practice an oriental discipline called Taijiwuxigong. When I do so, I am fully conscious that I am practicing an oriental discipline, am don’t rebel against it, saying that it is not universal enough to me. How can it not be universal enough to me, if I practice it? Still, I try to practice it in the purest way I can, because I am convinced that, if I add “my own theories” to the practice, I will do myself more wrong than good… don’t have to explain why, surely. And then, if my Taijiwuxigong teacher decides to study the Tarot, do you think he will say “this is not universal enough, I want to see more of, let’s say, the Eastern spirit in it”? I don’t think so. But Tarot can be used by anyone, as Tai-chi can! It’s just that one is a Western creation, the other and Eastern tradition. Reformulating my former sentence: what I see in the Tarot of Marseilles is the more adequate presentation of the Western tradition that is Tarot.

I also think that our generations grew up to believe that true spirituality is in the East. Not even the Orientals say this! It’s time to look for the Western spiritual schools as what they are: Western spiritual schools! Thank God, we are now free to choose – we don’t have to stick to a Western tradition, the way our grandparents had to be Catholic, or Protestant, or whatever. I can decide for the beautiful paths of the Sufi tradition, or become a Buddhist. But Tarot, Cabala, etc – even if in a certain confluence of cultures – are Western traditions.

Sorry for the long, possibly boring text.
Silvia
 

jmd

Frank Hall has captured my intent when I first coined the term Ür-Tarot, and in another post - which I hope to find tomorrow - discuss this very sense of the term - which is neither Aristotelian, nor Platonic, and yet reconciles both.

I have a large copy of the Academy hanging on my wall at my place of work - a copy of which I ordered specifically to remind myself not only of the disparity, but that each central figure, in pointing as he does either to the Earth or towards the Heavens, forgets him that points, who perhaps re-conciles both within himself (I use the masculine pronoun solely as the image depicts masculine characters).

Within our very being, within this very human means by which to bring forth the rich idea of Tarot, the archetypes (in, again, its Goetheanian sense, not Jungian!) become imperfectly manifest - yet not imperfect because they are but poor 'replicas' of platonic forms, but imperfect simply because the process of incarnation renders in concrete form that which remains essentially beyond the manifest.

This has been an absolutely wonderful thread to come back to...
 

noby

smleite, I didn't find your post boring, and agree with a lot of your sentiments. Of course, in a historical sense, tarot originated in a predominantly white culture, so of course it's going to reflect that! And of course, there's nothing wrong with that, any more than it is wrong for art created in any culture to reflect the culture of the people who create it. That's simply natural, and inevitable.

That's why I distinguished between the historical sense of tarot and the more "spiritual," universal sense of tarot. When it comes to the essence of tarot as a set of archetypes, I personally feel there is something missing, something limited and restrictive, in a deck with only white faces. This is a personal preference, and I don't think there's anything racist about people who don't have the preference. There's plenty of folks, including some who are not white, who enjoy and stick to decks with only white faces, seeing the white faces as simply a reflection of the culture of origin and nothing more. But personally, I can't see any one particular deck as the "ultimate tarot" in any sense other than a historical one, especially not one limited to a specific time, culture, and place.

I feel this way about any deck restricted to any culture, whether it is Caucasian, African, Native American, or any other. And I don't much like the forced effect of decks that try to rectify this by making a "cultural collage" with a different specific element from a different specific culture on each card, such as the World Spirit. I like decks that find a way to express the universally human in a way that transcends culture, yet in a unified and cohesive way.

I personally find that Navigators of the Mystic Sea does that beautifully, by speaking in a dream language that draws on universal human postures and facial expressions, as well as diverse symbols and elements from many cultures, times, and places that are juxtaposed without making them seem artificially jammed together. I think the International Icon is a recent deck which works towards a universal quality too, though it's my personal take that Navigators does it better. And of course, there are people who would find these same decks limiting and limited in focus.

And I don't think that the "East" (Which way is East? Depends on where you stand...) is inherently more enlightened. It's just that Buddhism, and in particular, Zen, is what I connect with personally. I have yet to encounter a method of cultivating awareness as direct and powerful as zazen, simple sitting meditation. But that's not because I believe zazen is the only way, but rather, that it's the way for me. And also, I've been as influenced by the transformation Buddhism has undergone in its translation into American culture as I am by its Asian roots.

And when I think of Western spiritual traditions, I don't so much look to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, though I have been inspired by and have drawn from each one, especially their mystical sects. I find it strange - in any other consideration, products from those cultures are considered "Middle Eastern," but their religions are considered "Western." Of course, those religions have spread since then, but I'm talking about origins.

All of the above traditions are oriented towards that which transcends this world in some way. When I think of the spiritual tradition I associate with the West, I think of the pagan traditions of Greece, Great Britain, and other parts of Europe. Of course, paganism and shamanism are universal forms of religion found in every culture. And I think that these traditions address a religious quality which has been forgotten or cast aside in Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This is the soulful enjoyment of the transitory pleasures of the world, experiencing something essential in them rather than looking beyond them.

I personally find it essential to draw from both more "spiritually" (i.e. transcendent) oriented traditions as well as more "soulfully" (i.e. sensual and embodied) oriented traditions. So I certainly don't devalue the contribution of the "West" vs. the "East." I don't think any one culture has a monopoly on truth, and that every culture on Earth, whether human or animal, has its wisdom. Some learn best by focusing on one particular tradition, but others, like myself, learn best by drawing from more than one.

Wow, this has really derailed from the original topic, but I think this discussion speaks to it in an interesting way by pondering the universal and essential in different forms, so I hope the moderators don't delete it.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Frank Hall said:
This thread really searches through towards truth, a refreshing, inspiring forward motion by all. Coleridge said that everyone is born either a Platonist or an Aristotelian --- but he's off track, I think. Everyone's got both in his or her soul, and everyone needs "Temperance" to mix and blend them.

You are so right. I have always thought "Aristotle was a platonist", so I typed it in google, and came up with this great page -
http://n4bz.org/gsr3/gsr301.htm

"Most members of Plato's Academy were the sons and daughters of rich Athenians, there to learn the secrets of mathematics and philosophy. Above the portico at the entrance to the Academy was an inscription that said, "Let no one without Geometry enter here." Those who came to Aristotle came to study the world around them. Aristotle is without question the greatest biologist who ever lived. He was more interested in the world as he found it than in absolute truth. When he finally turned to examine the abstract it was only after having substantially completed a description of all the world as he found it. It might seem absurd to call him a Platonist. In fact it has been said that there are only two ways to look at the world, the Platonist, and the Aristotelian, as though the two were mutually exclusive. However, this is a mistake because Aristotle's reverence for his teacher was not merely as an idol but as the fundamental source of his thought. Diogenes reported that when Plato would go into one of his long detailed discussion of the soul, the students would quietly walk out until only Aristotle remained. We may not quite understand why when Plato gave up teaching he turned the Academy over to his nephew Speussipus instead of his brightest pupil. But perhaps we should be thankful."

The debate between between Platonic and the Aristotelian goes back to the 15th century and the encounter of the Greek and Roman churches in the Council of Ferrara-Florence. But really, they are the parallel paths that, assiduously followed, lead to the same result.
 

smleite

Scion said:
(…) "essence" is another Platonic vaguery: how can you define "essence" if essence itself is a definition of the thing (i.e. prototypical)? What is the essence of something essential? Metaphysics again, ergo circular logic. We are left as the Worm Ourobouros, eating our tails.

This is such a wonderful thread. I think you are all so intelligent, it has been a pleasure to read your contributions.

Scion, your post made such a difference.

I just wanted to say this, about the above quoted interrogation of yours: I never meant to define “essence”. I also don’t think you can seize it with your intellect - but you can touch it with your soul. There is nothing unreachable, sometimes we are just trying to reach with the wrong instrument.

Silvia
 

smleite

noby said:
(…) I don't much like the forced effect of decks that try to rectify this by making a "cultural collage" (...)

Yes, I think that’s the right word, “collage” – I am so allergic to any “spiritual syncretism”… that formless and soulless new age mania…

noby said:
Which way is East? Depends on where you stand...

I also like this idea, hehe… For half the Earth, the East where the Sun rises is our Western location… a basic, yet very insightful reminder.

noby said:
All of the above traditions are oriented towards that which transcends this world in some way.

And that is all that matters. If we follow a road that is “oriented towards that which transcends this world in some way”, we can at least nourish the hope to get there one day.

Silvia
 

noby

smleite said:
And that is all that matters. If we follow a road that is “oriented towards that which transcends this world in some way”, we can at least nourish the hope to get there one day.

I personally don't want to get there, because I absolutely love where I am right now. I love this world and the dance of its rhythms, its sexuality, its sensuality, its chaos and violence. I am drawn to the peace of the transcendent, but only as a complement to the dance of the world of sensation. To me, enjoyment of the dance of sensation without the awareness of the transcendent is addiction, but equally, the total giving over of oneself to the transcendent by also rejecting life's pain and pleasure is a fundamental misunderstanding and abuse of life. I personally don't believe there is an afterlife, so I actually take the opposite view of Christianity by believing it is a sin to reject this life, this immersion in the sensory world. But there is no eternal punishment for this sin - just a sad waste, a sad rejection of life's gifts.
 

smleite

I don’t want to abuse this thread by entangling in a personal conversation, so I’ll stop here. But allow me just this…

noby said:
(…) the total giving over of oneself to the transcendent by also rejecting life's pain and pleasure is a fundamental misunderstanding and abuse of life.

Noby, as to afterlife we don’t agree – maybe this is an Aristotelian vs. Platonic question? It’s true, though, that I don’t call it an afterlife, since I don’t think life is “here” and whatever you find “there” is another thing. But as to “rejecting life's pain and pleasure”, couldn’t agree more with you. It’s in life’s pain and pleasure (in Life as a whole) that we can find the ticket for the transcendent. Eremitism, celibacy, renounce, self-flagellation, martyrdom… even our beloved sense of guilt… those are ways that belong to the past.