thinking stars & cards

Lunalfey--thanks so much for bringing this thread to my attention...here I was thinking I was the only one considering this idea! My problem with the tarot stems from the way the astrological qualities are combined in haphazard ways. For example, The Hermit combines the qualities of Saturn (age, time, caution, wisdom of experience) with the concept of Solitude, which I would associate much more with Pisces or the 12th House. The same goes for the Moon card which combines the emotional over-reaction of traditional Cancer, with deceptive qualities which I would see more as being Scorpio. The High Priestess definitely has a 12th house/Pisces feeling (mystery, intuition, occult ability) and I see the Fool as much more of a Sagittarius type than Uranus, with all his optimistic idealism and love of carefree adventure. I see potential in the Tarot for representation of astrological qualities, but in ways that fit astrology 'logic' better. Sorry I can't provide a creative structure to my ideas, but I'm still mulling it over. I seem to be approaching idea of an astrology deck from a different perspective, but I will definitely be staying tuned to all ideas that come up...

There's no reason why a Tarot card(s) should have a precise or consistent Astrological correspondence. They may indeed combine a number of qualities in a seemingly haphazard way - as you suggest.

The best way of looking at them is as having some analagous quality and use these qualities to help you get a better insight. I tried when I started Tarot, having done Astrology, to set up a clear table of correspondences to help my readings, and then found I failed dismally.

If you are going to use correspondences then set out your own. For example the Golden Dawn see the Moon card as Pisces (Cancer is The Chariot) but I never saw any Cancer in the Chariot and Tony Louis (in an excellent chapter on correspondences) mentions an association of The Chariot to Capricorn!

Go with what you feel suits best but don't try to make them precise - if there are bits that don't fit then fine - one's Tarot the other's Astrology. Correspondences can help but they'll drive you insane if you try to get a perfect system.

my idea - take what you will

it may be an idea to think away from the traditional tarot deck.

so (although venus is linked to the empress i think) venus for example could feature a beautiful woman, fertile etc.

12 zodiac (these could feature the symbol and relate to traits)
12 planets (inc. chiron, sun,moon?) (these could be people)
12 houses (these could be situation)
12 other cards featuring symbols for trine, oppositions etc.

i dont mean this to be a complete deck - just throwing around ideas. this is something i would LOVE to see!!!!!

RECAP:

I can see how my words and explinations have confused some?

it may be an idea to think away from the traditional tarot deck.
--littlewing {sorry to single you out, but your's is not the only post that made me think this, you just said it most directly}

I'm not trying to fit into the traditional 78 cards, there should not be limitations put on the creative process.

Click to expand...

~ lunalafey

NOW- trying to get past the hurdle of making the deck more than just flash-card like,
"the enchanted astrologer" deck by monte farber and amy zerner which feature 36 cards. twelve are signs of the zodiac, twelve are planets, and twelve are the houses in an astrological chart. --scorpio
and useful {OH but HOW to use it?} as well as not becoming a 'thick' deck
I thought there could be repeates of planets and aspect cards?
{forget elemental suits for the moment} so when layed out say; sun trine saturn(3 cards) then saturn conj. mars(3 more cards).....but that still did not feel right.....then I thought SQUARE.....square cards divided into 4 sections{big X corner to corner} only the 'upright' edge would be read. Each card has 4 possible representations. So now the problem is what 4?....Hmm.
while rolling that around (seriously-no pun intended!) I thought, well! we are dealing with the zodiac, and hugh spheres called planets, perhaps make the cards round!
HEY.....I'm still just playing with ideas.....

I'm a sun, moon, merc. capricorn, with a virgo rising and saturn in aries, I'm going to take a long methodic time just thinking & talking about it, until it's perfect, before I actively put it into a tangable form.

hmm,

bare in mind that i know nothing but the barest knowledge of astrology :O)

I think that if one looks to combine tarot with astrology on a whole, there should be a few options.

1. start scratch from astrology, using new astrology aspects like the now accepted new planets, and karmic astrology, while making it clear that you sticking to one known astrology, which if you going by north american standards be western.
i sincerly believe that working out from scratch using all one knowledge of astrology one will end up with similarties between the established systems of astrology and tarot , but come up with some new yet perfectly workable forms.

2. if one is looking at the tarot system and establised system of associations, one will have to look at kabbalah astrology as well, and all the forms like greek,
i dont' think , one wants to go down this route when trying to make a new astrological tarot that redefines the genre.

3. if it is going to be a standard system, among many possibilities , the person creating such an astrological tarot would have to make decisions, like we do in tarot itself, i use reversals , others don't , yet we accept this,
so the astrology tarot , would redefine it for other, get highly critized by other astrologers, and other will just say bah, hehe

numbers and planets are easier for me to understand , for i see it this way

1. sun
2. mercy
3. venus,
4. moon
5. mars,
6. jupiter,
7. saturn
8.neptune
9.uranus,
10. pluto

i am not going by speed, but if i went by greatest influence of the planet for then it would be

sun
Illuminator, source of life, the personality. "The Star".

THE MOON
Mirror, moods, reflection, instinct. Often a child or mother.


MERCURY
Messenger, message, thoughts, letter. The chatty one.


VENUS
Love, affection, aesthetics, a woman, a love interest.


MARS
Action, anger, drive, energy, a man, a decision.


JUPITER
Growth, abundance, expansion. Freedom. Good or ill fortune.

SATURN
Fulfillment, restriction, structure. Truth organized. Lessons.

URANUS
Change beyond your control, awakening. The unexpected.

NEPTUNE
The invisable, imagination, intuition. Conscience, inspiration.

PLUTO
Transformation, endings. That which you face alone. Rebirth
(by the way i copied this from some website like 6 months ago when i was doing a big collectiong of astrology information (basics ) from many websites )

who to say which makes more logic, :O)
that is the point of number four three :O)

but how does ten planets get the same in four elemental suits ?i get lost if if i dont' use the gd systme of cardinal, fixed and mutals signs and decadents.

for myself i think there isn't no reason for a tarot not to have precise system, (one can say there is no reason for a tarot to have timing systems set for it, or reversals, or elemental dignities or court cards, or kabalistic associations for it ,but they all work)

lunafey , if works, makes sense, (all i know is i am a virgo sun sign so that is what i look for too :O) ) and is consistent, so be it , WHOO HOO

aye for we are the west, so we can change the tarot like to work with our math system(numerology, our astrology system,our qabala system, for me as long as it is 78 cards, 22 arcana, ten minors suits, and 16 court cards, any system we come up if it makes sense, works, is consistent , the skys the limit :O)

question is the enchanted astrologer deck just an advanced version of the karma cards, or a new version ?

Some broad considerations

Hello All. I'm trying at this early stage to stay above the details and look at some broad considerations. In random order I have these thoughts:
1) Having a set of purly astrological cards might not be useful because 1A) you would only have one square aspect card whereas a chart-reading might need two or more, 1B) one planet might aspect several other planets, and 1C) you might have more than one planet in a sign or a house. So, dealing out cards into a spread might be awkward.
2) If you had a set of purly astrological cards you might actually just be substituting cards for the symbols and placements in a horoscope. What is the purpose of that?
3) To me, it only makes sense to consider the conception of astro cards with the concept of the spread(s) that they would be put into. Would you do a "whole chart?" Would you just focus on a question and pull several cards to see what an answer would be? Given that you shuffle and sequentially layout cards from a deck, what do you do when several planet cards come up but no aspect or sign or house cards come up? The mix of what you get is likely to have a degree of apparent randomness to it.
4) It seems to me that overlaying Tarot cards with astrological meanings is ONE methodology. 4A) This may mean that any of several spreads might be used. If so, there will have to be a firm, prior-defined procedure that recognizes certain (few) cards in the spread that can/will be read tarot-wise and astrolocially-wise. As an example; a five card spread (foundation, recent situation, current challenge, likely course of action, and final outcome) might overlay astrological meanings onto the middle three cards such that they may be either a planet-aspecting-planet or planet-sign-house combination. This would require an astro-tarot concept which was flexible so that a card could be used for either a planet, sign, house, or aspect. 4B) If a unique spread such as the horoscope/house spread or some other matrix pattern was used then a different tarot-astrology association scheme could be used. In the horoscope spread as an example, the cards in each house/sign area form aspects to the other 11 cards -- therefore no aspect card is required. Neither is an Ascendant or MC card.
FINALLY, we need to ask ourselves just what it is we wish to acomplish? Do we just lack an understanding of the systems that have come down to us from the great minds of the past -- and we do have to consider them "great" in the sense that they spent years of time researching these subject areas. Or, do we just disagree with the complexity or manner of their approach? If so, can we develop a simpler approach? And will the card's symbols that serve to remind us of tarot-associated meanings work to serve us with established astrological-associated meanings? Will one confuse or corupt the other? I lay these thoughts out there just for consideration. I do have some ideas of my own that I will put into another post so as to not confuse this issue to a greater extent. Please, keep ideas coming. Dave.

accomplish? perhaps contemplate....

Dad, you brought up some of the same thoughts I had, and some new ones to think on.

I'm thinking just a form of divination that uses the same concepts that are found in astrology.
Seperate the stars as they are (or in a chart) from the cards, using just the influence of planets & signs, what if there was a spreadsheet, with the zodiac, and 2 sided coins or stones where thrown upon the wheel. A question would be asked, the positioning of the stones & their relationship/influences would become the reading, like reading a chart. sounds pretty basic & simple , sometimes the best place to start...thx holmes

More thoughts offered

Lunalafey, another similar line -- one I've played with. First, you layout the cards in a spread that relates to the question you pose. Then, you read only the Major Arcana cards and their positons within that spread -- using the Major Arcana as if they were the "stones or coins" that you refered to in your post. As an example, on another list, I recently posed the following question during the Iraq war, "What is Saddam's role during and in the following few months of the war?" I had used the 11-card version of the Celtic Cross Spread. The Chariot Rx was in postion one (the Significator) -- Saddam was NOT in control. The only other M.A. card was the Fool in postion 7, the near future -- he was going to have to take his chances, there were no plans that could be followed far. (as a point of information, the only other card in the spread that was reversed was the final card, the eight of wands -- wrong plans are activated). You could also try the House (Horoscope) Spread using the Major Arcana cards as a short cut or focus reading that gave you the house and either the planet or sign (as represented classically by the card(s) to give you a planet -- if a sign, use the ruling planet). Dave