Midpoints, Planets in Containment

There has been interest expressed in exploring "Mid-points" (also know as half-sums) and in "Planets in Containment." The following definintions are offered:
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MID-POINTS: As popularly defined by Ebertin and Vitte (of Germany) and used by many modern astrologers, mid-points are formed when one planet or sensitive point lies at the mid-point of two (almost) identical arcs to two other planets. As measured by signs and degrees, an example would be one planet sextile two other planets -- one ahead of it, one behind it. Ebertin popularized the 90 degree dial (a fourth harmonic) based on the demonstrated manifestation of action and event emergence that is associated with that harmonic. Because a 90 degree dial (instead of a 360 degree dial or wheel) is used, any planet that is conjunct, opposite or square another planet in a conventional 360 degree chart would appear as a conjunction in a 90 degree chart. Planets or points at 45 or 135 degrees would appear as oppositions. The planet at the mid-point seeks to express itself through the combined characteristics of the other two planets. More discussion, detail and examples can be provided later as needed.
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PLANETS IN CONTAINMENT: Introduced in part by many authors, and used in various forms throughout history, the theory and use of "containments" has most comprehensively been articulated by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard in their book Planets in Containment. A containment consists of any three planets in a row as measured CCW (zodiac advancement through the signs). Unlike mid-points, there does not have to be any equal arcs formed. Only the three sequential planets are considered, the first forming the basis or foundation, the second (middle) defines the meaning of expression, the third planet showing the direction of the interpretation. This is important as the order changes the interpretation. It is also important to restate that there does not have to be any specific distance or arc or aspect between the three planets, only the fact that they are "in a row" or sequentially adjacent to each other.
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HOW CAN WE EXPLORE MID-POINTS AND CONTAINEMENTS? We can take either or both of two approaches. 1) Utilize a well-known personality's chart, and/or 2) Address a specific planetary pattern (either mid-points or containments) in a chart that is of interest to forum members (yours or someone elses). We can also explore books, tools methodologies, orbs and other issues associated with this thread.
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I will introduce a chart in a later post, noting the ASC, MC, Sun and Moon positions to provide a brief context for exploring one or several mid-point or containment patterns. Meanwhile, any of the formum members are invited to post whatever. Have fun. Dave.

containment?

This is new to me. In 4 years of reading, I have not come across this. interesting....tellmemore....
CW?...what is the distance between the planets? 3 in a row, in the same sign?...oh boy....

Example chart for exploration

Lunalafey, I'll use the chart for Jimmy Carter, for President of the US, as a basis for some initial exploration. This chart can be found on Lois Rodden's Astrodatabank site.
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Jimmy Carter's Sun is a 8-Libra-04 and is at a 135 aspect to the mid-point between his Mars (23-Leo-20) and North Node (20-Leo-29) -- exact within 20 minutes of arc.
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Using Ebertin's "Combination of Stellar Influences" (CSI), which many consider to be the bible of mid-points, we can read the following interpretation: "Comradeship and good fellowship, the will to unite with others, etc." Psychological correspondence for Mars-Node is given as, "the desire to cooperate with others, comradship, and team-spirit, a social conscience, etc."
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In the middle of the last century Ebertin published his findings based on the earlier work of Witte and others. He not only developed the essential meanings of mid-point interpretation but clarified the methodology of identifying and working with them. His experience found that there was no essential difference between the conjunction, square or opposition of a planet to the mid-point of two other planets in terms of interpretation. To simplify his work he "folded" the 360 degree chart four-fold and developed the 90 degree chart. This permitted him to accomplish several objectives -- planets and points that were square or opposite any other planet appeared to be in conjunction when their positions were marked on the 90 degree dial. As an example, planets/points at 5-Aries-00, 5-Cancer-10, 5-Libra-12 and/or 4-Capricorn-52 would all appear to be closly conjunct. Any planet/point at 45 degrees or 135 degrees from the mid-point of any two planets would appear, on the 90 degree chart, to be opposite the mid-point position. Ebertin also recognized that the 90 degree chart is, in effect, a fourth harmonic chart which seems to define one's approach to life and coping with events. (As a contrast, the fifth harmonic corresponds to one's lifestyle, the seventh harmonic corresponds to one's spirituality and self-honesty or ethics).
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One can look at the "closest" mid-point pictures (Sun=Mars/Node in this previous example) and immediately see what drives the subject or event. In Carter's chart, Sun=Mercury/ASC as well. This can be briefly interpreted (using CSI) as, "The inclination to cultivate the exchange of ideas and thoughts, the search for intellectual stimulation, the desire to discuss vital questions with others. The state of defining one's position in relation to one's environment, the act of speaking or negotiating on matters which concern other people." Isn't this so apt? In another post I will list some of the available book titles which forum members can take advantage of to pursue this thread topic. I hope this sparks your interest. It is so simple, no signs, houses, dignities, rulerships, just straight forward planetary combinations. Dave.

Example of "Containment."

Lunalafey, this seperate posting is to answer your question on "distance" between planets. Using again Jimmy Carter's chart we will find Sun at 8-Libra-04 bracketed by Mercury at 21-Virgo-11 and Saturn at 1-Scorpio-55. There is no aspectual relationship between these three planets nor is the Sun at the mid-point. We are here dealing with, simply, a "containment -- Mercury-Sun-Saturn. The theory of containment, as presented by Sandbach and Ballard in "Planets in Containment," notes that there can be any amount of distance between the planets as long as they are adjacent (with no intervening planets).
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The cookbook interpretation is interesting: "Here are basically flexible people who are yet capable of tremendous stability and constancy in using energy. Their potential mastery is foundin the abili;ty to take ideas and order them in a meaningful manner. They are capable of communicating with an economy of words, and of laying out ideas in a practical and logical format. They can be ingenious when it comes to dealing with limits. There is a capacity for approaching long-range goals with a clear sense of what is wanted and the ability to know different ways of getting it." Isn't that a remarkable interpretation? It is very sophisticated and sensitive -- I don't see many report writer software programs that are that good.
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The key to interpreting containments is to recognize that the order of planetary sequence is important (unlike in mid-points). For instance Saturn-Sun-Mercury would be very different, focusing on one's own limitations (Saturn) and ways to get around them (Mercury) for one's own benefit and well being (Sun). You take the first planet as a foundation, the last planet as the direction, and express it through the middle planet. Now, containments are even easier to use than mid-points because there is no calculation to do, no hidden aspects of mid-points to search for. You just look at the chart and talk. Of course, you have to look at all of the chart since no one pattern defines anyone. Have fun with this approach. Dave.

dadsnook2000--thanks for starting this thread. I don't know about others, but I would prefer that Midpoints be treated in a separate thread than Containments, in order to avoid confusion. Do others agree?

I have seen midpoint charts supplied by online chart generators, would they suffice (rather than Ebertin's 90 degree dial?). Because I have no experience with Midpoints, I'm not sure what method to proceed with. As you say, they should be taken in context with a whole chart, so I'll have to rely on your judgement (and others) regarding how exactly to proceed. In terms of whose chart to analyze, it doesn't really matter to me. I will ultimately be taking your/Ebertin's methods and testing them on my own chart to judge their accuracy anyway. I am going to try to get my hands on Ebertin's "Combination of Stellar Influences" as soon as I can. Although we can discuss midpoints and containments generally here, I'm sure I will have questions about the specific charts that I am working on. I am looking forward to learning about this topic!

Mid-points

Hello. By all means, you should feel free to ask questions about any mid-point pattern that interests you -- one of yours or one from another's chart. I posted Jimmy Carter's chart because it was available to everyone and because most people know of his extensive international work helping others. I felt that some of the forum members might be hesitant to share their chart and have it picked apart. You can share your chart if you wish -- we can look at portions of it that you are most concerned with -- or you can just bring it up a piece at a time.
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One of the mid-points that seems to come a lot in the charts that I am asked to look at is Moon-Mercury-Pluto (in one combination or another). I don't have that combination but it seems that many I talk with do have it. Dave.

I must admit that I've not used midpoints at all - except for some experiments with Arabian Parts. I've ordered the Sandbach and Ballard book and hopefully it will be arriving in a couple of days.

Again, I don't mind whose chart you use - one that we all have access to is obviously best and the Jimmy Carter chart seems to fit the bill.

littleneptune said:

dadsnook2000--thanks for starting this thread. I don't know about others, but I would prefer that Midpoints be treated in a separate thread than Containments, in order to avoid confusion. Do others agree?

Click to expand...

I do, I think there might already be a thread titled "Midpoints"
I'm curious about this 'folding' the chart, at what points do you fold? AC/DC-MC/IC?...
does the sign have influence (other than what is normal, or is it even part of the evaluation) on a contained planet? I have 2 signs with 3 planets in each.
I'll wait with the Q's until there's a seperation, I'm losin' track of what direction I'm going

Planets in Containment

I think you'll be happy with PIC for three reasons. First, the use of containments is much faster and simpler than the calculation of mid-points -- or, if using a computer, going through a list and picking out those that are more precise. Second, the nature of how you interpret the planets in containment lends itself to an easy grasp of the meanings. Third, the book gives very detailed and highly apt descriptions that are far superior to the briefer comments given in Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences (CSI) -- helpful for everyone during the learning phase and later as a reference guide. Of course, CSI was written 50 plus years ago, was influenced by the drastic views of Witte who developed his views in the midst of World War I (very dire views). While there are probably improved versions of CSI by other authors, you can easily adapt the more robust information in PIC to mid-point use. I'm sure we'll have some chances to explore that. As I told littleneptune, we can discuss aspects of anyone's chart and be very free wheeling in our approach. We'll be talking. Dave.

dadsnook--do I understand you correctly in saying that containments would be a better place to START, and then later move on to the midpoints? If that is the case then maybe we won't need to start a new thread (mercury retrograde, my brain needs to go sloooowly). Also--are we all going to look at Jimmy Carter's chart to begin the evaluation? And if so, is this chart to be posted somewhere, or should I set up his chart myself?....I also want this discussion to be free wheeling as you say, but I may require a little structure to keep things organized as I learn the ropes...