Do you find the Lenormand to be counter-intuitive?

We all use the same 26 letters of the alphabet.

But, we don't all write them down in the same way, nor do we make the same sounds to express them.

Yet we can all understand each other.

Teheuti said:

To contrast intuitive readers with traditional readers doesn't work for me.

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I didn't...I said I'd noticed a dispute between the practice of traditional and intuitive methods of reading - not contrasting the readers themselves, and I'll tell you why - regardless of how any 'traditional' reader may like to work, they're using both learned methods AND intuition. The cards which are selected for the spread are taken intuitively, through shuffling, selection and laying down. So, even if the rest of the reading is interpreted using only 'traditional' methods and disregarding any impressions made outside of the rational, the intuition has still played its part in the overall process, undoubtedly affecting the outcome of the reading.

Teheuti said:

Traditional readers first learn a 'vocabulary' and method of step-by-step analysis and, once learned, it instantaneously and instinctively feeds into the intuitive process. It also serves as a check point to see what may have been overlooked when receiving intuitive impressions.

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More or less a paraphrase of what I said. I learned tradition first, now I have scope to be creative. The cards acting as a springboard for intuition. I don't consider myself 'traditional', though. Rules are there to be followed, so that later, they can be broken.

pluto'sapprentice258 said:

We all use the same 26 letters of the alphabet.

But, we don't all write them down in the same way, nor do we make the same sounds to express them.

Yet we can all understand each other.

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And we may not agree on everything, but we can grant others the right of having differing opinions without implying that they are thereby being destructive or ignorant. The key is mutual respect, but this does not mean pretending that differences do not exist.

LRichard said:

And we may not agree on everything, but we can grant others the right of having differing opinions without implying that they are thereby being destructive or ignorant. The key is mutual respect, but this does not mean pretending that differences do not exist.

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Sun + Key

(Yes )

pluto'sapprentice258 said:

Rules are there to be followed, so that later, they can be broken.

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Agreed. To me, that is exactly what is meant by a traditional reader.

I think the issue behind all this is that many people new to Lenormand don't want to feel constrained by any rules or keywords (this is the extreme end). Rules certainly aren't necessary to giving a reading with symbolic images or items. Give me almost any kind of oracle deck, let some cards fall 'randomly' to the floor, and I can do a meaningful reading based on my understanding of symbols and an ability to perceive patterns intuitively. However, precision of detail (location of lost objects, for instance) was never my strong suit.

I teach Lenormand in layers. I insist on keywords and rules: a very precise way of reading at the beginning. Then with each successive layer I show how the first layer is modified, turned around or even thrown out as knowledge, understanding and fluency increase until an informed-intuition can be given free reign. BTW, the research shows over and over again that "informed-intuition" and rules-of-thumb are far more accurate than intuition alone in every field.
For finding lost objects, for instance, the precision of the tradition has proven astonishingly accurate. I can choose to be more free-form in my approach or not as warranted in the situation.

It all depends on what you want from your use of the Lenormand deck. The deck itself is simply an artifact that can be turned to many uses and approaches. The key is finding the best approach and training for giving you the results you want.

Counter-Intuitive

Going back to the thread title - Do you find the Lenormand to be counter-intuitive?

Yes - if by counter-intuitive you mean going against my first instincts, gut feelings and first impressions. Definitely. It is why I use the cards. If my first impressions either on hearing the question or seeing the cards, were always right, then I wouldn't need to know anything more. However, by looking carefully into the cards and examining their relationships, I often see something very different than my first impression led me to assume. I love the cards precisely because they take me very different places than I would go without them. They suggest possibilities I wouldn't have otherwise seen. I regularly discover that by going 'back to basics' in terms of what the cards mean, I get closer to what is really going on, as opposed to my initial 'story' about what was going on. Realizing this is like catching myself by surprise so that I can see where my own biases and assumptions have been getting in the way. I'm constantly trying to discover where I do this.

The original Golden Dawn training in Scrying in the Spirit Vision, and their first four initiations were all about becoming aware of one's natural proclivities that get in the way of 'clear seeing.' They focused on knowing yourself astrologically speaking. Thus, in a group scrying, they could remind each other when a member would start traveling down the path of their own powerful Mars energy, etc., or be viewing things through their personal Mercury lens, rather than seeing what was really there. This process was described in some of the 'knowledge lectures' on scrying. I also had this experience when I took a couple of years of classes with an extraordinary psychic development teacher in San Francisco who would psychically monitor us precisely for such effects in our work.

That's very interesting, thank you for sharing that
My own learning experience has been very solitary - but for the company of a few youtube videos and some friends willing to sit for me - though I have had no formal teaching.

I approached Lenormand methodically, as I do most tasks, and started from the most logical place - the beginning Lots of memorising and note-taking. I admit, I still haven't navigated or even drawn a Grand Tableau yet, and before I do I intend to try a Moreau spread; I am now more confident with 9 cards, and the Moreau requires 24 (I think, perhaps 25 including a significator...yep.) I can interpret a mean pair, though I get lots from 2 cards, and my 'burn' card - very unorthodox, but a habit (due to the taboo) I borrowed from Texas Hold 'Em. The card is acknowledged but not included in the combination. I do burn for every reading I do, also with Tarot, where the habit actually originated.

Once I knew the basic method of blending, the rest began to flow. Intuition plays a huge role, so for me personally, Lenormand and intuition are synonymous and always have been.

Sometimes I 'unlock' a Tarot card, and a wash of information comes from it, even associations I had otherwise not 'consciously logged' for the card, for want of a better term. Because Lenormand's beauty lies in its simplicity with respect to Tarot, I find this 'unlocking' process is more regular with Lenormand. Regards first impressions (and during the initial stages of learning), the 'traditional' messages arise first, then the intuition begins to blend everything. For me, that's when a story emerges - something I can describe with more than a few keywords or combinations. Don't get me wrong, I still rely on my notes, but my style takes me in new directions all the time, thanks to intuition, and that leap of faith!

These are my experiences, but my journey has been lonely (until I joined AT!) and without formal guidance. Many of my methods are unorthodox (some of my personal spreads might curl teeth) but they work for me, and I have so much fun.

Reading Lenormand is not an either or situation. Traditional meanings combined WITH intuition give the best insight.

Chronata said:

And I personally don't think there is a wrong way to do anything. If you find a method that works for you...then why is that a bad thing?

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I don't see it as a bad thing either. Only a few moments ago in another thread I shared my thoughts on this. I personally believe that the cards (or whatever is behind the cards, etc) of any system speak to the reader, not to a rule book somewhere in existence. I'm learning to read Lenormand cards and I'm learning the Lenormand system but I didn't take holy vows to adhere to any particular or rigid set of keywords. As I go along, I'm noticing my own personal relationship with the cards is evolving. I don't think that means I'm outside the Lenormand system but if someone told me it was I would be okay with that and then say I use Lenormand cards in a way, inspired by the Lenormand system, that suits and works for me. haha, what a mouthful.

I try for the most part to stick to the way Lenormand is meant to be read, but I too can't help it when my intuition jumps in and I actually feel details, even if the cards I pulled say nothing about it.