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wow, I have a lot of reading to catch up on in this thread. work has been a killer lately and I haven't had much free time.
Top   #101
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I have a very basic question. If the two significators are in an applying square or opposition, is this a positive indication (because they're in an applying aspect), or a negative indication (because it's a square or opposition)?

In other words, are we simply looking for an aspect of any kind, and that's a positive indication, and then the lack of any aspect is a negative indication? Or are we also looking at the kind of aspect?

Edited to add: In reading over this thread, I see that in discussing my "brother" chart, Astraea did say that in that chart, an applying square between the significators was the most worrisome aspect, so that suggests that a square or opposition is indeed a negative indication.
Top   #102
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If the question is about something you really want - such as will I get the job or will I find my lost earring, then an applying square or opposition is definitely negative. Lilly says that he hasn't come across any examples where an opposition has worked favourably and whilst sometimes the square does 'work' he says that it implies difficulty and indeed you might regret getting what you desired.

So if will I get a brand new car is signified by an applying square, you might get the car but it will be nothing but trouble and expense or even worse you might have a serious accident whilst driving it.

There may be times when the square or opposition might be favourable, but it would have to be a situation where you are hoping that something does not come to pass, such as being billed for $20,000 by the IRS, or even worse. Care must be taken though to check that the square or opposition doesn't simply indicate bad times ahead is such circumstances - so arguably a square might indicate that the IRS actually do succeed in billing you.

I'd tend to see them as always negative unless there's convincing evidence that they are preventing a nasty from happening. All the examples I can think of could also be read as indicating the 'nasty' will happen to you, as you have a clear wish that the nasty won't happen.

So 'Will the executioner catch his plane and get here in time for my execution tomorrow?' might show an opposition between Lord 8 (death) and Lord 3 (The plane) and you might interpret that as meaning he won't make it and you'll get reprieved.

However the question is really 'Will I escape execution tomorrow?' and the square or opposition indicates 'No' you won't rather than the executioner failing to catch his plane. A macabre example but it shows the dilemma in interpreting the aspect in a positive manner.

I'd be interested in how Astraea sees it as she's usually more able to see the direct and obvious answer.

edited to add:

Lilly allows translation of light to involve oppositions and squares but again I think we have to recognise that there is likely to be at best difficulties and delays involved. And at worst we don't like it when we get the quesited.
Top   #103
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As is so often true in astrology, the quick answer is: It depends. Likewise, practitioners can hold different opinions with regard to the same set of facts.

For me, unobstructed applying aspects between significators are like energetic highways - they bring events to pass, but the ease or difficulty thereof depends on the type of aspect. In general, trines and sextiles tend to mean "Yes, with little or no effort," squares "Maybe, but with difficulty and tension," and oppositions signify "You can force the issue, but you'll be sorry."

Equally important, as Minderwiz points out, is what your aim is in asking the question. If you simply want to know whether or not A will marry B, and there is an unobstructed applying aspect between the two significators (especially with support from other areas of the chart), I see this as meaning that the likelihood of marriage is strong (though not inevitable): the smoothest route to the union would be shown by a trine or sextile (the sextile requires effort, but not an inordinate amount); with the square, A and B will need to move some mountains, but can still make it happen; with the opposition, they can bulldoze their way through obstacles and bend circumstances to their wills, but they'll regret it.

But if the question is whether or not A and B will be happily married, and their significators apply by square or opposition, then the answer would be No. So qualifiers are important. Much depends on the context of the question.

If someone asks if the IRS will send him a huge bill, I think he would be better off without any aspects or receptions at all between the significators. To me, a trine or sextile would mean "The bill is in the mail, but they won't be nasty about it" a square would signify "They're on your trail, and they're angry" and an opposition would mean it's time to line up some funds and get legal representation.
Top   #104
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Hmm, very interesting. Minderwiz's and Astraea's viewpoints differ a bit (not trying to pick a fight between you, LOL). I do realize that different practictioners can hold differing but equally valid viewpoints.

So, in trying to boil this down to its absolute essence, what I'm gathering is the following for Astraea's viewpoint (for the moment not distinguishing between trine and sextile on the one hand or between square and opposition on the other):

If the question is will X happen:

Trine/sextile: Yes, and the route will be smooth/positive outcome.

Square/opposition: Yes, and the route will be difficult/negative outcome.

No aspect: Will not happen.

I think this formulation would still hold true for Astraea's example of "Will I be happily married," as the "difficult/negative outcome" would clearly suggest a "No" to that literal question.

Minderwiz I think sees the square/opposition as usually meaning "Will not happen," although there may be times when it can mean "Yes and the route will be difficult."

In either case, I imagine a lot would depend on what else is going on in the chart.

What if it were a fundamentally different kind of question? If instead of asking "Will X happen," we ask "Will X condition continue," it seems to me the trine/sextile and square/opposition results are the same, however we might amend "No aspect" to mean "No change" rather than "Will not happen."

Minderwiz points out that for finding objects, a square/opposition will mean no, the object won't be found. Astraea, I'd be interested to know if you would agree, or if, applying your principle, a square might mean it will be found but with difficulty, and an opposition would mean, say, it will be found, but found broken?

Minderwiz, for the "lost object" kind of question, I'd be interested in knowing, if a square/opposition means "not found," how you would you interpret no aspect?

I tried applying Astraea's principle to Minderwiz's morbid example , and this is what I got:

"Will I be executed tomorrow?"

Trine/sextile: Yes, and it will be an easy death
Square/opposition: Yes, and it will be a painful death
No aspect: No execution.

Astraea, I like your descriptions of the differentiations between the various aspects and I'm saving them for further reference.

I did actually intend to post another attempt (I was going to say "another stab" but thought better of it) at a horary chart, but re-reading this thread and gathering/organizing information from it took up half the day, and I did have to do other things like exercising and making dinner, so I didn't get to it. But I do expect to, either one evening this week or next weekend. Minderwiz, should I post it to this thread, or would you prefer, as suggested early in this thread, that I post a new thread entitled "DIY Horary - (Question)"?
Top   #105
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P.S. I think I may have missed a nuance in Astraea's post regarding the meaning of a square as opposed to an opposition. Rereading it, I think a square would mean a lot of effort required, but the outcome could possibly be either positive or negative; while with the opposition, the outcome is definitely negative.
Top   #106
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Lee, you raise excellent points and questions which (for me, anyway) are far too complex to speak to categorically - even hypothetically. I touched on a few keynotes of my own approach in my post, but in reality, all manner of issues enter into a judgement (especially reception and non-aspectual contacts like antiscia). To me, trines and sextiles provide easy opportunity and the likelihood of a Yes answer (in certain contexts), but they do not imply inevitability. In the same manner, squares are difficult but don't deny fulfillment, while oppositions can bring about events in ways that end badly - but, again, with caveats. One must look at the whole chart, as summed up in the maddening phrase so often seen in astrological texts: "All things being equal."

Not only do astrologers often disagree - their disputes about pivotal issues can be ferocious (as seen on a few other forums). One must find one's own way, and it often feels as if one is flying blind. My route through these airlanes commenced with a study of general natal astrology, moving on to horary, and then to traditional approaches which gradually supplanted the modern psychological emphasis that characterized my earlier studies. I know of no other way to recognize one's individual resonance with astrological symbolism than to study Lilly and other source texts, practice constantly, and keep records of the results.

Minderwiz and I have no disputes or areas of significant disagreement, though in relatively brief forum posts it might sometimes appear as if we do. He is a superb practitioner of horary astrology, emphasizing Lilly's approach - and rightly so. Lilly, in my estimation, needs to be front and center in any course of horary study, and wherever I might seem to disagree with Minderwiz, there will be found only degrees of light and shade within a unified field.

(Edited to add/revise: Minderwiz is a superb astrologer, period - which one has to be, in order to master horary. John Frawley has famously stated that horary astrology was taught first in traditional usage, but in my view horary is extraordinarily layered and complex, requiring solid grounding in basic techniques most often found in natal work. At any rate - in any seeming dispute between me and Minderwiz, he gets my vote! )
Top   #107
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I can't believe I missed this thread til now!

I've been reading through quite a bit of what's been posted, and would like to give this a try but I'm pretty nervous about trying it out since I don't have that much experience with it (I've done work with my own birth chart, but that's about as far as my astrology experience goes!)

Am I able to post a chart or question here to help walk me through the intrepretation process, or is there another question/chart on the go right now?
Top   #108
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I*n my previous post I was going off memory of what Lilly said about squares and oppositions rather than reaching across to the bookshelf and quoting him. As so often memory is not perfect so I'll do what I should have done late last night

ASPECTS OF (SQUARE) AND (OPPOSITION) Things are produced to perfection, when the significators apply by square Aspect provided each planet have dignity in the degree wherein they are, and apply out of proper and good houses, otherwise not. Sometimes it happens, that a matter is brought to pass when the significators have applied by opposition but it hath been when there hath been mutual reception by house and out of friendly houses and the moon separating from the significator of the thing demanded and applying presently to the Lord of the Ascendant (that is there is also translation of light by the Moon) I have rarely seen anything brought to perfection by this way of opposition but the Querent had been better the thing being undone; for if the question was concerning marriage the parties seldom agreed but were ever wrangling, each party repining at his evil choice, laying the blame upon their covetous parents, as having no mind to it themselves: and if the question was about portion or monies, the Querent did it true, recover his money or portion promised but it cost him more to procure it in suit of law, than the debt was worth, etc. and so have I seen it in happen in many other things, etc

Now that implies that:

square can work providing that the significators have dignity (and whilst he doesn't specifically say what dignity, I would think he means a t least Terms and probably ruler, exaltation or triplicity only. And the significators must be well placed - angular or possibly succeedent houses.

Oppositions may work but only if there is mutual reception and translation of light by the Moon. Now it's not perfectly clear whether the remainder of his paragraph is about perfection through these conditions, i.e. simple oppositions don't work. Or whether the remainder of his paragraph is about simple oppostions and the aforesaid case with mutual receptions is OK. However if he did mean to discriminate between 'favourable' and 'unfavourable' oppositions I'm at something of a loss as to why 'unfavourable' squares don't work but 'unfavourable' oppositions do work (though you wish they hadn't).

So my brief summary wasn't exact enough and Astraea's comment is more in line with what Lilly seems to have meant. I did however remember that Lilly sees translation of light working for oppositions, so if he has this as a requirement of perfection by opposition (along with mutual reception) I suppose I can claim that i was nearly right in attributing views to him.

Personally, I think I'd apply Lilly's full test of mutual reception plus translation before I'd be predicting a perfection of the matter and that would include getting what seems to be the right outcome but regretting it at length later. Going on my gut feeling, without those conditions, things won't work out. .

For squares I'd go with Lilly and say it needs the dignities to work out but there will be difficulties, delays or obstructions in the process. Without the dignities and good house placement, then it's unlikely to or we're in the situation of getting what we wanted and then wishing we hadn't.

But, as Astraea says much of interpretation is down to the individual Astrologer and indeed how the individual Astrologer sees the chart (as we don't view the aspect alone.) Lilly (and Astraea) have done far more Horaries than me, so I'm not going to disagree with either of them. All I can say is that in my limited (and it is limited) experience with horary, I haven't come across an outcome perfected as desired by opposition - hence my comment about it being a negative indicator.
Top   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idyll View Post
I can't believe I missed this thread til now!

I've been reading through quite a bit of what's been posted, and would like to give this a try but I'm pretty nervous about trying it out since I don't have that much experience with it (I've done work with my own birth chart, but that's about as far as my astrology experience goes!)

Am I able to post a chart or question here to help walk me through the intrepretation process, or is there another question/chart on the go right now?
Yes by all means - a new chart and question would be appreciated!
Top   #110


 


 


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