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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Hi Ronia

Yes you're right, the Moon signifies you and Jupiter signifies the Job.

I can see that you have issues with the dignities, so try putting them aside for the moment and simply express what you see. Then try to add in say the essential dignities or some of the accidental ones but not both at the same time. As you get more and more used to it, you can begin to do both at the same time.

Now my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be, so I have some difficulty reading the small print on your chart. It would help me if you could post the key information - time, date and place and I can duplicate the chart.

However you're right to treat the Moon's house placement as being a poor one and yes you're right, being inconjunct the eighth house is one of the 'out of the way' places. So you will have some difficulty getting noticed by prospective employers - such as writing lots of job applications but either getting no or only a few interviews, You also correctly identify that the Moon is under the beams, which adds to that inability to be seen, However it's nearly out from under the beams so things are improving It's fast - a good sign and it's increasing in light - all of those suggest that things will get better than they are now.

In Aquarius the Moon has dignity only in the last 10 degrees and then only by Face (Decan). You are quite right she has no essential dignity at 19 degrees Aquarius. This is the first and most important reason you use the table - to determine if the Moon has any essential dignity and if so, how much.

I'll deal with your question about what use the Triplicity, Terms and Face rulers are, when I've commented on Jupiter.

You're right Jupiter is without essential dignity either - this suggests that the job may either not carry much seniority in the organisation or may be one requiring only basic skills. As your key criteria are that it's desired by you and well paid, so things don't look very promising in that respect. However the accidental dignities suggest that the job is well placed in the eleventh house, which is your house of hopes and aspirations, so that's some evidence that you might want the job (of course it might simply mean you want 'a' job. The eleventh is a good placement so the job might be convenient or reasonably prominent. The other accidental dignities reinforce this conclusion - the job does have attractions, even if it is a basic one. The weakness in essential dignity might alternatively mean that the company offering the job is not strong, so even if the job appears desirable it might not be long lasting.

OK back to essential dignities and that table.

Try confining yourself to seeing if the planet as any essential dignity of it's own, that is it appears in one of the columns for that sign. Of course allow for it being either a day chart or night chart if it is one of the triplicity rulers and ensure that it is in the right degree if it is in the Terms or Face columns. The more points it has (Ruler=5, Exaltation-4, Triplcity=3, Terms=2, Face=1) the better, A planet can be in more than one of it's dignities in a sign, so if it has two or more then add the scores together. The higher the score the stronger it is.

For the moment ignore those entries where your planet does not occur. So for the Moon you can ignore all of the planets that do have dignity. You can add those into your interpretations when you feel happy using the essential dignity of the planets that are significators and the accidental dignities of those planets.

For the accidental dignities place most value on the House placement, then whether it is combust/under the beams and then direct or retrograde. Finally check for close aspects to Venus and Jupiter by trine or sextile and Mars or Saturn by square of opposition.. You can add in the oriental/occidental later on - BTW you were right with Jupiter being oriental.

Add the accidental scores together to get an impression of how well placed the planet is to act or if it signifies something impersonal, to be the subject of action. The high accidental dignity of Jupiter suggests that even if the job is not as intrinsically as good as you would want there are a lot of people out there who would want it if they had the chance - it's an employers' market.

So far we've looked at the planets in so far as they describe the situation. Tomorrow I'll post again on the likely outcome of that matter. I hope you will have been able to post the chart details by then. It will allow me to do some fine checking LOL

Actually you did very well there - you identified the correct significators and you gathered the right information. The issues are ones of interepretation - how do you use it? Basically you are using it to assess how strong or otherwise you are as a candidated for a job and how good the job is and - how well placed you are to take advantage of job opportunities and how 'desirable' the job is. Here you're in rather a weak position in the labour market and the job may not be as good as you hoped but it will be attractive to those seeking work.
Top   #61
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I don't have time at the moment to read the today's posts so far (today I'm actually busy, go figure). I must say it's a bit disconcerting to see my life discussed so clinically, LOL! I'm just kidding, I'm happy to help supply an example for learning purposes.

I should say a bit more about my work situation. Basically I provide services to litigation attorneys. (Minderwiz will be interested to know that my work involves computers and communication, and in fact I can't imagine a more Mercury-like profession.) Myself and everyone who does my kind of work are independent contractors. When attorneys need the service, they call an agency, and the agency has regular contractors like me who they assign the work to, and I go to the law firms and perform the service. The agency bills the attorneys for my services. When the attorneys pay the bill, the agency gives me a percentage and keeps the rest for their overhead and profit.

So it really isn't that I sell my services to the agency. It would be more accurate to say that the agency sells my services to the attorneys (the ultimate clients).

Regarding which house to use, it could go either way. I immediately thought of the 10th house because although I am self-employed and the agency is only an agency, it so happens that I feel as if they were my employer. The agency's principals aren't friends of mine but we have high regard for each other. They trust me to do a good job for them, and I trust them to treat me right, which they do (at least as far as I know). I've known them since they were teenagers. We have been loyal to each other. Our relationship is based on mutual economic interest, but I feel kindly towards them and I would certainly like to think they feel the same towards me. So my relationship with them feels more like a trusted employer/employee relationship than an agent relationship.

On the other hand, Astraea is certainly correct that technically and legally they're an agency who hires me as an independent contractor and not an employer.

So I'm gathering that the assignment of houses sort of a subjective art. Are there specific guidelines for a case like this where we have a technical truth and and emotional truth that may disagree?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
...I'm happy to help supply an example for learning purposes.
Lee, yours is an excellent chart for learning purposes. It's got everything! It's radical, it contains a reception, it's got peregrination and retrogradation and interference, it's got options among houses and viewpoints, it is dynamic, and it's as clear as the situation right now allows. Your work sounds very interesting and I know you are super at it. I hope the agency is able to continue, and you with it! Or that something even better will come along.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Minderwiz, the chart was cast on January 24, in Sofia, Bulgaria at 15:53.

My problem with these dignities is I don't know how to use them to tell all these things - what my situation is, what the job is... Just how to apply them. And with triplicities I don't understand anything.
Top   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
I don't have time at the moment to read the today's posts so far (today I'm actually busy, go figure). I must say it's a bit disconcerting to see my life discussed so clinically, LOL! I'm just kidding, I'm happy to help supply an example for learning purposes.

I should say a bit more about my work situation. Basically I provide services to litigation attorneys. (Minderwiz will be interested to know that my work involves computers and communication, and in fact I can't imagine a more Mercury-like profession.) Myself and everyone who does my kind of work are independent contractors. When attorneys need the service, they call an agency, and the agency has regular contractors like me who they assign the work to, and I go to the law firms and perform the service. The agency bills the attorneys for my services. When the attorneys pay the bill, the agency gives me a percentage and keeps the rest for their overhead and profit.

So it really isn't that I sell my services to the agency. It would be more accurate to say that the agency sells my services to the attorneys (the ultimate clients).

Regarding which house to use, it could go either way. I immediately thought of the 10th house because although I am self-employed and the agency is only an agency, it so happens that I feel as if they were my employer. The agency's principals aren't friends of mine but we have high regard for each other. They trust me to do a good job for them, and I trust them to treat me right, which they do (at least as far as I know). I've known them since they were teenagers. We have been loyal to each other. Our relationship is based on mutual economic interest, but I feel kindly towards them and I would certainly like to think they feel the same towards me. So my relationship with them feels more like a trusted employer/employee relationship than an agent relationship.

On the other hand, Astraea is certainly correct that technically and legally they're an agency who hires me as an independent contractor and not an employer.

So I'm gathering that the assignment of houses sort of a subjective art. Are there specific guidelines for a case like this where we have a technical truth and and emotional truth that may disagree?
Thanks for the info Lee and I gather that you have now got work!!

Yes there's some subjectivity but I would say mainly on the part of the querent. Looking at your description of what you actually do, it appears to be a classic agent releationship, at least in law. In that case the Law firms would get the seventh as the buyer of your services, and the agency would get the sixth which is ruled by Jupiter. Now if you hadn't mentioned your feelings to the agency or described them as your employer in the question, this is the arrangement I would have used based on your desciption of your work.

However my feelings are that what matters is the querent's feelings about their situation, not the legal arrangement. If you habitually think of the agency as your employer then you have put yourself in a tenth house relationship to them and the houses, as you assigned them were correct.

If the agency used your services, if and when they needed them but all your dealings were with them, not the Law Firm, then the agency becomes the seventh House buyer of your services, and of course if you saw yourself as selling your services to them.l

So based on your feelings, I'd go for the tenth House relationship and say that it's likely based on the chart that a client or friend of the agency is represented by Mercury and they will bring the agency to your money - the Sun. I don't think this is as weak as Astraea does because there is both mutual reception by exaltation and that partile trine. The conclusion though only holds for the 2 week period, whether circumstances improve or decline after that is another matter, though I agree with Astraea that the Horary shows current trends.

Now if on reflection you feel that you got the relationship with the agency wrong, then we can revisit it but I don't think much will substantially change. The Law firm becomes the seventh House and it is not in a bad situation at the moment - Saturn is in exaltation and the Moon will aspect Saturn (ignoring the previous aspect to the South Node) so that would suggest some work will come. Again though there are some concerns that the situation is not as good as it could be and certainly with the Moon being Peregrine, you are very much at the mercy of others.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Minderwiz, the chart was cast on January 24, in Sofia, Bulgaria at 15:53.

My problem with these dignities is I don't know how to use them to tell all these things - what my situation is, what the job is... Just how to apply them. And with triplicities I don't understand anything.
Thanks Ronia. I'll cast the chart and come back later with a full reading so you can see how things slot together.
Top   #66
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Reading for Ronia


Iv;'e attached two files, Ronia Horary is the chart (which of course you already have) anr Ronia Horary Alm is the essential dignities as produced by Morinus and I'll cross reference those to the table.

As already stated by you, your significator is the Moon in Aquarius and the job/career is a tenth House matter and with Pisces on the MC, it's significator is Jupiter.

The Moon in Aquarius has no essential dignity - it's Peregrine' We can tell that from the Morinus chart because there is no entry in the cell where the Moon's row and the Moon's column intersect. For ease of recognition, I've written 'Peregrine' in that cell. The word comes from the Latin for traveller or stranger, foreigner or pilgrim. It's someone who is not at home where they find themselves and are dependent on others to get by in their strange surroundings. In other words peregrine planets rarely have the capcity to perform successfully, they usually need help. That help may come from one of the planets that has dignity in the place of the Moon. That is Saturn the sign ruler and triplcitiy lord. You can tell Saturn has these roles because in the Moon's row and in the Saturn column there is the score of 5 (ruler) + 3 (triplicity lord). In other words Saturn is the big cheese in Aquarius and can help to get things done for the Moon (assuming he is willing). In the Skyscript table of essential dignities, look up Aquarius and you will find Saturn in the ruler column and Saturn as the triplicity ruler by Day.

There is no exaltation ruler for Aquarius but there is a Lord for the Terms, The Moon finds herself in the Terms of Jupiter, who just happens to be the significator of the job - so it's possible the company itself might help you - again though if they are willing. Finally the Moon is in the Face of Mercury and as Face is only one step better on than being Peregrine, it's unlikely that Mercury will be of any real help, unless it is itself very strong and in willing to help.

There's a lot of 'willings' there, so the obvious question is how do we know the planet might be willing to help. There will be a favourable aspect from them that that links the Moon (you) to the Job (Jupiter).

The accidental dignities of the Moon you identified very well and you got the main point - the Moon is under the beams in the eighth - a very good indication that you will have real difficulty getting noticed in the job market. The only partial good news is that it will shortly emerge from the beams, so we would not score the whole -4 and it is fast and gaining in light. Things are currently not at all good but there will be at least a little improvement in the future.

Now Jupiter, which is also peregrine. Now the job is inanimate but the person or company hiring is not, so it probably means that they will need help to find you - that might mean that you should circulate your CV or indeed ensure that your CV is up to date and presented in the way that firms in Bulgaria want to see. That may or may not be the same as it was in the US. So help to you and help to the employer might be through you having your CV checked, many employment agencies will do that, but you may find independent consultants that will help.

Jupiter is in Taurus, the sign of Venus, and the Moon is the exaltation ruler in Taurus. So now things have changed. The Moon is in the Terms of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the Exaltation of the Moon. We have a mutual reception, though not a particularly strong one, but you might actually be have particular skills that the employer thinks important and 'exalt' - This might be simply being fluent in English and having real local knowledge of the US, which might be of great use to an exporter or a tourist company or even a translation company. Those are of course not the only options but they are a few obvious ones.

Now we are in a situation where you both need some help but are able to supply it to each other. So in the situation of a mutual reception, are the Moon and Jupiter still peregrine? There's some discussion over this, even if we say they are not peregrine there is an argument that two weak planets being in mutual reception cannot suddenly become strong. Dykes argues that being a stranger or traveller, doesn't mean you are weak, it means that you don't know the system and how things operate. If you find someone who can help you with the system, you can still achieve and perform well. Similarly a planet in mutual reception with another both of who may indicate people who might not achieve separately but who together might actually have to complementary skills to achieve. I tend to go with that view, so I think you have something going for you in the Bulgarian labour market, an ability which you might not rate, but which others do.

Now Jupiter is also well placed in the chart, as you identified. It's on the eleventh cusp, so it might be the job that you hope for or it may be that your friends lead you to it. Being Direct and free from the Sun's beams means this employer may well be quite dynamic. Jupiter's speed is neither fast nor slow, so there's no gain or loss there.

OK so we have the basic description of you and the company in terms of the potential job, the next question is 'will it happen?'

The first thing we look at is if a major aspect will form between the Moon and Jupiter. There is a sextile forming, and the Moon is already applying to it. But before it can perfect the aspect the Moon trines Saturn in Libra. Saturn is in an out of sign opposition to Jupiter. So Saturn will actually 'prohibit' the aspect by being in the way (it gets the Moon's aspect first). What does that mean in people terms? There are a variety of possible meanings, but they are all likely to involve you in either seeking help from somebody who ends up actually doing more harm than good or someone in a powerful position (relative to the situation) either deliberately or inadvertently spoils things. Now there might have been a chance if Jupiter was applying to the opposition (even though oppositions almost never produce the result) but in this case the opposition has passed.

The next possibility is a connection through antiscia. Neither planet is near the antisicon of the other, so no connection there.

Finally we look for a helpful third party. We've ruled Saturn out because of the prohibition and the opposition to Jupiter. Mars has just turned retrograde and is not in any dignity of the Moon, or Jupiter and makes no helpful aspect to either of them. The Sun signifies your income, as it rules the second house but it's not making an applying aspect to Jupiter (it's in a separating square) or to Venus ruler of the eleventh and also the House of the employer's money.

Venus is not aspecting any planet and Mercury, the Term ruler for the Moon, and is in an applying conjunction with the Sun has no aspect either to Jupiter or to Venus (the employer's money) There does not seem to be a candidate to help you out here.

Lilly allows the matter to be perfected by a mutual reception but he was talking about one which was ruler to ruler - say Moon in Pisces and Jupiter in Cancer. Here we have Moon in the terms of Jupiter, though Jupiter is in the exaltation of the Moon. There may be an outside chance but I don't really see that happening unless the job is desperate for your skills no matter what.

Now I think your time limit of virtually the entire year is too long for this question - you would have been better to have stipulated two or three months at most. as there is much you can work on to improve your 'essential dignity' - i.e. ensure that you are marketing the skills employers want and you are happy to apply.

In this horary the 'job' would have found you much more attractive than you found it - it wouldn't be awful or anything but it would not be your prime choice - Jupiter is only the Terms ruler for the Moon but that work on marketing yourself may land you the job that you really do want.

I think there's a lot of promise here, even though it doesn't deliver immediately. Work on your marketability as a job candidate, begin to identify companies, roles and geographical that you see as desirable and ask again in a month or two. The message of this Horary is start getting that preparation done for your real launch onto the job market.
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Thanks, MInderwiz. From all written, I think I better give up horary all together. I can't see how things fall into places, it apparently requires far more knowledge and interpretation than I have the ability for.

There are some things that may be true in another way though. Peregrine sounds much like me - I'm not willing to be stuck anywhere. Who knows, may be I'll move again and this will change the situation all together. I chose a longer term because previous times I chose shorter terms and the answers were so negative but it seems the longer term doesn't help much. Too bad. Seems like a third jobless year may be starting. I wish I had asked another question. Thanks for the help.

I just wanted to know about the mutual reception - what if Venus is in Pisces and Jupiter is in Taurus (both are significators), does it mean such reception would allow perfection even if they don't form an aspect? Is that what is meant by "rulers" in mutual reception?

And the second thing - the transition of light, does it require the Moon (for example) to not have any other aspect before it aspects the second significator?
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Now that I've had time to read through this, some more newbie questions?

It seems like there's this unlimited amount things you can check after you go through the basic essential and accidental dignities. So how do you figure out which ones to use? Is there like a list of the ones. For example, in the beginning you mention the Antiscia, how do you know it that's something you can check for a question? Also how do you know how important each of those things is to a question and which one of those hold more weight in a question?

Also some chart questions..How do you figure out if a planet is retrograde, or about to go retrograde? How do you know if the mood is void of course on the chart? How do you know where a planet will end up or how a chart is changing over time?

Also this question may come more from reading the glossary, but it was mentioned in a reading as well. If a planet is in conjunction with the sun, in what cases is the aspect considered positive or negative?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Thanks, MInderwiz. From all written, I think I better give up horary all together. I can't see how things fall into places, it apparently requires far more knowledge and interpretation than I have the ability for.
It's not really more difficult than Tarot reading, in that the trick is to relate the significators to the question asked but clearly there is a learning curve to begin with - perseverance will get you there and you identified much of the key astrological information in the first place. Take it in small steps and don't expect to be able to do everything at once

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
There are some things that may be true in another way though. Peregrine sounds much like me - I'm not willing to be stuck anywhere. Who knows, may be I'll move again and this will change the situation all together. I chose a longer term because previous times I chose shorter terms and the answers were so negative but it seems the longer term doesn't help much. Too bad. Seems like a third jobless year may be starting. I wish I had asked another question. Thanks for the help.
I think three months would have been a comfortable period for the question and as you're using it as a learning exercise I don't think you have to conclude that you're not going to get a job for the rest of the year. I actually think the horary showed some promise It also gives you some things to think about, in preparation for your entry into the job market. I don't see this horary holding for the whole year, unless you want it to. There are things you can begin to work on to improve matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I just wanted to know about the mutual reception - what if Venus is in Pisces and Jupiter is in Taurus (both are significators), does it mean such reception would allow perfection even if they don't form an aspect? Is that what is meant by "rulers" in mutual reception?

And the second thing - the transition of light, does it require the Moon (for example) to not have any other aspect before it aspects the second significator?
Yes, you are right on both counts. Lilly sees a mutual reception by sign as a clear indicator of a successful outcome. I don't see any reason why the same should not apply to a mutual reception by exaltation, though I would prefer to see an aspect there as well (as in Lee's horary). Below that level of dignity I would definitely want to see the aspect between the significators. I would then be very happy to predict a successful outcome.

For translation of light a faster planet must in turn aspect one significator and then go on to aspect the other, without any intervening aspects to other planets. If there is such an intervening aspect, the matter is 'prohibited' by that intervening aspect. In simple terms, if a third planet gets in the way of the Moon translating the light from significator 1 to significator 2 then then matter will not work out.

It seems to me that you have a reasonable grip of mutual reception and translation of light, simply by asking those two particular questions - don't be so pessimistic about your own skills and ability - I think you have as good a grasp as I would expect at this stage, probably better!
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