CHESS and Tarot?

augursWell

Greetings

Greetings filipas (Mark),

It's nice to have your voice heard on these forums. I personally have been greatly persuaded by your book, the Hebrew letter correspondences for each of the Major Arcana that you describe make great sense to me. Interesting that Christian Cabala starts aleph with the Fool whereas the more likely correspondence has aleph starting with the Magician...

But, to get back on topic, as to the chess symbolism, I would be interested to determine if the original card artists had any intent of trying to use the cards in actually playing chess or perhaps combining tarocchi the game with chess the game. Anyone have ideas in that regard?
 

jmd

Great to have many voices joining this area of the Forums... and hope my immediate response encourages, rather than discourages others.

With Christian Cabalah, it neither, of itself, assigns Alef to any card. Rather, the continental Christian Cabalists sharing Tarot interests would, if any correlations are made, allocate Alef to the Magician. Only those who derive their Kabalism via the Golden Dawn would alter the generally accepted view and opt for placing the Fool as Alef. Even Waite and Case, it should be remembered, who were both members of the GD at various stages, place a Shin upon the gown of their repsective Fools (one of the sequential places commonly found is the Fool as penultimate - though Mark tends to agree with meticulous strength with Falconnier in placing the Fool as 22nd). Also, even in his book, Waite places the Fool as second last, despite its numbering, in that deck, as '0'.

These are such important considerations for further reflections, in my opinion, that Kabalistic - or at least Hebrew letter associations, merits not only frequent re-visits, but looked at with differing fresh eyes (including, for those who dismiss it readily, GD correlations :))
 

firemaiden

The links sound interesting Huck, but I can't get them to work, can you check the URL's please?
 

jmd

With the Trionfi link, on the left is a rubric titled 'Considerations on Chess'.

The second link works, but you may have to copy the url (on your Mac, hold the 'ctrl' key and choose 'Copy link to Clipboard', then in a new Tab, paste the address).

Thanks for that image, Huck :)
 

firemaiden

WOW!!!! that's a chess piece!!!

Reading that site, I learn that piece was the King from the "So called Charlemagne" set from the Saint-Denis Abby dating to the end of the 11th century...

Wow wow wow! See the VIII century "rukh" (rook?) at the bottom of the Archaeological findings page -- a kind of chariot, pulled by bosomy sphinxes. [added later: this is a piece from the Afrasiab Chessmen page]

Oo oo oo, and on the Charlemagne page is an 11th century Chariot

So the "Chariot" is what became the rook? isn't the rook the castle?

So doesn't that make wonder if, when paper was made possible, tarot cards could have been an experiment in turning Chess into a card game?
 

jmd

I'm afraid I cannot see those links...

With regards to the Chariot and Castle, it is quite interesting that a number of early depictions seem to imply a close connection between a wheeled Tower and the Rooks.

It may be that the reason for the order on the game is that at its extremities - in the thick of it - is the Wheeled Tower (& its accompanying foot soldiers) which may come closest to the enemy fortress and breach its walls, followed by the Knights, followed by the King and his retinue of advisors (the Bishops), amongst whom is a general or Prince with the power and means to move quickly and efficiently across the whole field (what later became the Queen).

It makes me realise that here is another area I would like to find some ever so great reference on... without the vast disparate work one normally needs to do (I do realise that some books have so been written for Chess, by the way).
 

firemaiden

DRAT!!! The links to the images no longer work at all!! The site is under construction I guess. I should have downloaded them while I had the chance. Very very mad! They were so exciting. grr grr

But anyway, what you say about the wheeled tower is most amazing. hmmmmmm! Conversely, that would explain for the modern interpretation also of an immoveable chariot. ;)

(I sent an email to Monsieur Cazaux to ask him when the site will be back up and to invite him to come join us here. )
 

Ross G Caldwell

All of firemaiden's links worked for me...
 

firemaiden

Bibliothèque Nationale de France to the rescue: Here is a view of the entire collection "dit de Charlemagne" Vue d'ensemble

The King is the second piece from the left in the back row, there is a crown atop his frame. There are three chariots (rooks) in the collection. I notice each is a quadriga (chariot drawn by four horses)

From bnf page echèc de Charlemagne I learned something interesting with respect to the possible relation to tarot -- translating, snipping and summarizing:

  • These chess-pieces are too large to be handled on the game board, they are meant to belong to the royal or ecclesiastical treasure. Their job is not enjoyment, but symbolism. The game itself is a way of showing by example the proper place of each person in society....

Reminding me of the "story board" theory of tarot -- symbols used for teaching... hmmmmmmmmm