Third the RWS is a Christian deck and the Thoth deck is a Pagan one.
Indeed. The Thoth depiction of The Devil is of the Pagan (Greek) God Pan. He is depicted as a Goat. He is often understood to be the ultimate represent of the Pagan God The Horned One. This further links his association to the Astrological Sign of Capricorn (The Goat, also, the charm on The Devil in Tarot of the Vampyres).
The name Pan means "all, or everything" in Greek. (
The Witches God, Farrar & Farrar, p. 75). It is thought to be the derriviative of the word "panic" (which also hails from the Greek language); "Pan causes irration wild fear in the noonday silence of a deserted mountainside" (Pinsent, p. 76).
Linked to the Roman God Faunus, Pan was a lady's man who often lusted after feminine creatures who frequently met their demise due to his obsession. After his successful seducing Moon Goddess Selene, she was killed for allowing herself to be seduced by him at the hands of Boreas (the North Wind). A mountain nymph named Echo refused Pan, and he had her killed personally. Chasing after a nymph known as Syrinx; she had her father turn her into reeds. In his anger, Pan cut them down and turned the reeds into his famous pan-pipes and named them "Syrinx after her" (p. 77).
Ergo, despite his "positive" qualities of being the God of Nature, often he would allow drive and will to over-rule common sense. His determination would become an obsession and would end in tragedy for himself (and most notably, for others).
Fourth the court cards are different in the RWS and the Thoth, and the Tarot of Vampyres follows the Thoth one. There is no King court card in the Thoth, Crowley replaced it with the Prince. Crowley changed their attributes. In the Golden Dawn decks. and RWS too, the Pages are earth, the Knights air, the Queens water and the Kings are fire. In the Thoth deck the Princesses are earth, the Princes are air, the Queens are water and the Knights are fire, only the Knights are on horses. If you check the Tarot of Vampyres the court cards on horses, the Lords, are fire too, the Queens water, Princes are air too and the Princesses are earth.
I've already acknowledged his, and will not waste time or space by addressing it again...
The Mother Goddess has a dark side, the Crone, Death. And like I said, when there is a Tsunami, it's definitevely the Crone doing some reaping, and I doubt she cares about who she hurts at that moment.
I beg to differ. A Tsunami does not just occur out of a vacuum, there is a reason for it. There are weather patterns that create the Tsunami because said patterns must be followed through. The Tsunami is not a vengeance tactic, it is simply an natural phenomena that occurs for a reason. Mother Nature's Crone aspect may rule the destructive weather force, but I do not believe that the wise old crone does not care whom she hurts or that said Tsunami has occurred for a negative reason; I believe that there is a lesson to be learnt. I'm not saying that said victims 'deserved' this natural disaster, but rather that the Crone saw reason for an enlightenment of world-view due to said disaster. Ex. Be prepared, heed the warnings, take out insurance, value your loved ones, etc.
But when I was talking about the Devil (the God Pan), I was talking about that untamed impulse of life, it shows the God Pan after all, who put his seeds all over the place to give life. Don't confuse the end of the suits with the Devil.
I am not confused, I was simply demonstrating how Crowley realized and depicted negative to positive, and how too much positive can lead to the negative. Like I said, checks and balances, ebb and flow, etc. I was exemplifying how Crowley's ideals supported my interpretation of the card. [See above for the more negative connotations of the God Pan.]
Like the Six of Knives, which means Science in the Thoth and the card does not show someone travelling in some boat, but some really smart vampire using the knife to focus his active mind.
They are not meanings so much as they are a single "Keyword". They were created from Qabalastic and Astrological associations to each card in question, combined in a reasonable form which was derived from a mathematical equation, hoping to summarize possible interpretations of the card. They are not definitive, and do often do not encompass all possible meanings. See DuQuette's
Understanding the Aliester Crowley Thoth Tarot page 206 titled "Recipe for the Small Cards" for further understanding of the concept.
Science may be the Keyword presented on the card, but DuQuette includes the divinitory meanings of "
Labour, work, journey by water. Success after anxiety and trouble; self-esteem, beauty, conceit, but sometimes modesty therewith; dominance, patience, labour, etc." (p.286) which he cites came from "A Description of the Cards,
Equinox I(7), pp.143-210." (p.327).
By the way this is a part of the book Phantasmagoria about this card:
Thanks much, for this!
The Devil portrayed here is not the evil figure as characterized by some interpretation of the Bible, but rather an image of fiery creative energy.
This clearly defines the link to the God Pan...
As the trump card of Capricorn, his nature is that of a wild mountain goat, representing cosmic creative energy in its most material and masculine aspect. He embodies our instinctive lust for life and the burst of energy that brings new life into existence.
This supports my interpretation of the Material ruling over the Spiritual (which often leads to negative happenings). It also supports your more positive interpretation of the card as being that of creation. We each have our own interpretations of this card, one more positive (yours) one more negative (mine). Both of which are needed to achieve balance and the totality of possible meanings; the positive and negative aspects of the card.
The powerful arching horns represent divine spiral energy, materialized in earthly form - Capricorn being the most impulsive and initiative of the earth signs.
On the topic of Capricorn and The Devil who "share an important trait: both understand all too well the trials and temptations of the material world" (
Tarot and Astrology, Kenner, p. 63). Kenner goes on to state: "marny of [The Devil's] characteristics happen to be derived from Pan [...] Pan was a god of physical pleasures, including sexuality, food and drink [...] Because of his association with Pan, the Devil has come to symbolize erotic pleasure, wild behavior and unbridled desire" (Kenner, p. 64).
The Devil (the title Daniels gave to the card, further linking it's meaning to the Christian mythos) is "connected to sin and temptation [...] lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. [...] wealth and material success can liberate us - or enslave us" (Kenner, p. 63). This supports our opposing views on this card. The key between our interpretations lie in the task of balance.
Capricorns, likewise, "are keenly aware of their social status. [...] they are constantly climbing, and constantly seeking greener pastures" (Kenner, p. 63). Capricorn "rules the tenth house of career and social status - both of which often come at a great expense," they are "the sign of tangible property, material resources and physical existance" (Kenner, p. 64).
As Capricorn is ruled by Saturn "the planet of boundaries and limitations", the additive of The Devil makes for the association "with both the pleasures and pain of physical existance" (Kenner, p. 63). Kenner states that "both Saturn and the physical universe operate according to scientific law and principles of reason" (p. 30). This actually emphasizes my beliefs on your Tsunami/Crone/Nature scenario. She goes on to state that Saturn is the "planet of structure, boundaries, limitations, and restrictions" (p. 30). Saturn "serves as a reminder that reasonable people also recognize their limits, and make wise choices to make the most of the time and space they're allotted" (p. 30). -The warning of the Capricorn symbol upon The Devil's chest, "the sign of work and responsibility" (Kenner, p. 31).
The Devil has an insatiable animalistic passion that reaches up into heaven and down into the centre of the earth, connecting earth energy with divine inspiration. [...] The Devil can represent a spiritual awakening if we gain control over our unbalanced animal instincts by reuniting them with our higher self, where they are transformed into a more natural, sensual bliss. This illustrates that the Devil card is both our animalist lusts exalted to a higher spiritual plane, as well as the anchoring of our divine creative inspiration in the deep earth.
This enforces the message of balance needed to bring forth the creative aspects of the card.
The two angels embody our higher self enthralled and impassioned within our physical being, enraptured in their sensuality and passion[...]
Which enforces the idea behind Body being the prison of Spirit. The chains that the RWS uses to symbolize the connection to our desires and our position. Which I believe are represented in The Tarot of the Vampyres by the choker-like ribbon-wrap necklaces upon the angels necks.
This cauldron contains all the potency of life seething into new possibilities.
This supports your creative manifestation interpretation of the card.
As the zenith of midwinter (Saturn), the Devil also illustrates the heedless driving force of life reaching from the dark earth into light, much like the fermenting forms of nature such as insects and ivy craving for life.
See above for more references to Saturn.
The information presented on the ivy supports my theory of the "vines" choking out all life around it. -Daniels interpretation of the ivy is much more positive than mine, however! ;]
The reversed pentagram is a symbol of the earth element exalted above spirit, to which it has gained control via physical manifestation and willful action.
This is an interesting interpretation of the up-turned pentagram. I must admit I have never thought of it this way. Perhaps it is due to the negative connotation the over-turned pentagram of the Satanists has generated (due to the Christian's misunderstanding, of course). Note to self: read-up more on Satanism. ;]
The two upturned points are symbolic of the rampant horns of the goat, further enhanced by the fact that the card is exalted in Mars (creative energy and willpower).
Linking The Devil, again to Capricorn.
The note on it being exalted in Mars is truly the only definitive Thoth like reference in this passage.
Regarding Mars, and presumably Daniels' phrase "most material and masculine aspect", it "is the warrior planet of energy, aggression, assertiveness, and self-defense" (
Tarot and Astrology, Kenner, p. 25). Kenner goes on to say that Mars can "symbolize quick, sudden bursts of energy and power [...] intensity, potency, drive and desire [...] confidence and power [...] sexuality, stamina, and strength" (p. 25). Mars "governs ambition, aggression, assertiveness, and impulse" which must be checked by balance (Kenner, p. 25). Of course, Mars also rules over "sports and competitions [...] war [...and...] battle (Kenner, p. 25). There is nothing bad/evil about any of these aspects in moderation, but again, I suggest that balance is the key to their usage.
Looking to Crowley, now: He does associate his Devil with Pan (a given). He refers to Pan as "the All-Begetter" (
The Book of Thoth, Crowley, p. 105). Crowley definitely stresses The Devil as "creative energy in it's most material form" (Crowley, p. 105). His depiction and explanation of the card holds rather positive undertones, but the divination means he provides interestingly enough lean more towards the negative (giving no positive/negative or light/shadow differentiation): "Blind impulse, irresistibly strong and unscrupulous, ambition, temptation, obsession, secret plan about to be executed; hard work, obstinacy, rigidity, aching discontent, endurance" (Crowley, p. 258).
Duquette provides The Devil's title as "The Lord of the Gates of Matter" (
Understanding Aliester Crowley's Thoth Tarot, p. 137). He states that The Devil card "is the most universally misunderstood character of the entire deck"; to which we can both agree upon (p.137). What I found very interesting is "the Devil has truly been the scapegoat for all the perceived evils that could befall us, and the sinful temptations that are constantly luring us towards self-destruction" (p.137). -I've never made the connection between scapegoat and The Devil/Pan! Very appropriate, I think. Duquette ponders over the assumption that "the Devil is supposed to be the card that represents evil" (p. 137) and comes to the conclusion that it "is something other than the ultimate evil" (p. 138) which we also can both agree upon. The statement "the Devil is just God as misunderstood by the ignorant and wicked" -I believe this enforces Daniels interpretation for the over-turned pentacle (DuQuette, p. 138). Crowley's Devil "is the Devil the world has been taught to fear. He is life itself, unrestrained, in mad love and seeking to grow and unite with absolutely everything" (DuQuette, p. 138). -This enforces the creative aspect of the Thoth The Devil and Tarot of the Vampyres Devil's cauldron. DuQuette simply parrots Crowley's divination keywords on page 280.
While I am starting to see how your Thoth interpretation of this card can be seen in Daniels' Tarot of the Vampyres Devil, I still hold that this particular card has much more RWS symbolism and therefore RWS-based traditional meanings. -It should be noted that within the passage that you provide, Daniels does not refute my interpretation, but rather enforces it, as his passage also supports yours.