Mark Filipas - The Pasteboard Masquerade

kwaw

jmd said:
The second no-one has yet presented, EXCEPT for a few isolated cards.

Totally irrelevant. Why should the critics have to seach 10's of thousands of words over a thousand pages in order to draw up a word list to prove the hypotheses wrong? For a hypotheses they may think is self evidentially flawed anyway and the which the proposer has failed to prove or demonstrate in the first place?

It is the proposers job to demonstrate the hypotheses, not the critics to dispove it. Without a baseline model of what may be expected by chance word lists prove or demonstrate nothing, as Mark has himself concurred.

Kwaw
 

venicebard

Overcome by excitement

venicebard said:
[I will continue my pursuit quietly for now and post its findings only once I have something more substantial to say.]
Even at this early stage, I have to say I've found something substantial, and I pose it here in order to reinforce the added bardic dimension I claim would explain the Jewish lexicon's purpose.

I long ago was disappointed to find that the sign of the negative in Semitic was not the N it is in Indo-European, but rather L-lamedh. But now, having gone through just a third of the N words so far in my Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon, I am heartened beyond measure to find that most of the roots have to do either with the act of negation or with negative things suggested by its trump (XIII), as well as NBO 'to gush out, bubble out', which is what N's negativity does relative to its alef-bet trump XIII or learning.

NAO 'deride, despise, contemn, reject',
NBA 'wither, fade, fall off', whence 'lightly esteem, despise, contemn',
NBL 'wicked, impious, ungodly' and with H on the end 'corpse, carcase (of man & animals)',
NGCh 'push, butt (w/ horns)' yields NBChOM 'to engage in conflict with',
Arab. NGL 'to cut, wound' yields MGL 'sickle' (Je. 50.16 , Joel 4.13),
NGO yields 'to smite (as God does w/ disease & calamities)',
NGP 'strike, push, stumble against' and 'infliction of disease, plague (as a divine judgment),
NGSh 'impel, exact, oppress',
NDD includes 'flee',
NDCh 'impel' but also 'expel',
NDN 'sheath' ('negates' sword),
NDF 'scatter, rout',
NDR 'vow' but Arab. 'to cut off',
NHG 'to take away',
(NHH 'wail, lament'),
NHM 'grumble, growl, groan, moan',
NVA 'refuse, decline; hinder, restrain, prohibit; dissuade, discourage; frustrate',
(NVB 'put forth shoots', and NVN 'sprout, propagate', conforming to N's also meaning 'newness' in Indo-European),
NVD 'be shaken, driven about (as a fugitive)' and 'remove, depart, flee',
NVL 'to dirty, soil',
NVS 'flee, ride swiftly' (N is Odin's steed, the ash),
NVSh 'to be sick', a n d
NZR 'separate, withdraw, restrict oneself from, abstain from'.

So far, so good. Also, after being somewhat disappointed at the D words in my modern Hebrew dictionary, I found the Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon (based on ancient usage primarily) yielded a complete treasure trove of words invoking D-oak-door-compass-sacrifice-XII LePendu, consisting once again of most of the roots.

DBCh 'to sacrifice' and (m.) 'a sacrifice',
DBSh 'honey' (summer solstice being bardically associated with bees),
DD 'breast' -- only in dual, 'breasts' (cancer's physiological assignment),
DVN, the oak-king's prerogatives 'to rule, govern, judge, pead, defend, punish, contend, strive' (in the tribe's defense),
DVQ Chaldean and Syrian 'to look round, look out' (D is the horizon without, the horizon before), and Arab. conj. 'to surround',
DVR "in the deriv., according to the Arab., to move in a circle, go round,"
DKR 'remember' (in the sense of eminence, the hero-tales oak symbolizes being for this purpose),
DLL 'to draw (as water from well)': "In the deriv. also to hang down, and related DL 'low, weak, poor', which explains the formerly puzzling (to me) meaning 'poverty' attached to DLTh (and to the letter dalet in the Zohar), and whence also DLP no doubt, 'to drop, drip' and 'shed tears, weep' (for tragic hero, the oak),

and since I'm outta time, a couple examples of D being the direction straight ahead (outer horizon):
DChH 'push, thrust, drive',
DChP 'impel, urge, hasten',
DOK 'go out',
DQR 'thrust through, pierce',
and so on.
 

kwaw

venicebard said:
So far, so good. Also, after being somewhat disappointed at the D words in my modern Hebrew dictionary, I found the Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon (based on ancient usage primarily) yielded a complete treasure trove of words invoking D-oak-door-compass-sacrifice-XII LePendu, consisting once again of most of the roots.

DBCh 'to sacrifice' and (m.) 'a sacrifice',
DBSh 'honey' (summer solstice being bardically associated with bees),
DD 'breast' -- only in dual, 'breasts' (cancer's physiological assignment),
DVN, the oak-king's prerogatives 'to rule, govern, judge, pead, defend, punish, contend, strive' (in the tribe's defense),
DVQ Chaldean and Syrian 'to look round, look out' (D is the horizon without, the horizon before), and Arab. conj. 'to surround',
DVR "in the deriv., according to the Arab., to move in a circle, go round,"
DKR 'remember' (in the sense of eminence, the hero-tales oak symbolizes being for this purpose),
DLL 'to draw (as water from well)': "In the deriv. also to hang down, and related DL 'low, weak, poor', which explains the formerly puzzling (to me) meaning 'poverty' attached to DLTh (and to the letter dalet in the Zohar), and whence also DLP no doubt, 'to drop, drip' and 'shed tears, weep' (for tragic hero, the oak),

and since I'm outta time, a couple examples of D being the direction straight ahead (outer horizon):
DChH 'push, thrust, drive',
DChP 'impel, urge, hasten',
DOK 'go out',
DQR 'thrust through, pierce',
and so on.

So it is #daleth that corresponds to Le Pendu? [And nun with XIII?]

Kwaw
 

kwaw

venicebard said:
But as for I LeBateleur, the two are not even close: M.F.'s list is much more complete as to specifics, the 'B-list' missing such absolutely essential details as the work-bench itself (whose missing 4th leg represents the 'missing' vowels of ogam consaine, I maintain)!


BYMH – ELEVATED STAND FOR SPEAKERS, WOODEN PLATFORM, RAISED SEAT, WOODEN STAND FOR DISPLAYING GOODS, STAND FOR EXHIBITING TORAH
BYMS – IDOLATORS ALTAR, PEDESTAL
BSYS – ANYTHING THAT SERVES AS A STAND FOR SOMETHING [A STOOL, BENCH, TABLE, ETC] OR IS SUBSERVIENT TO ANOTHER OBJECT [IE, THE TABLE ON WHICH AN OBJECT IS PLACED], PEDESTAL, BASE, STEP [ROOT BSS , NITHPA NTBSS=TO REST SAFELY, FIRM BASIS AS IN ‘AS SOON AS THEY MADE A THIRD LEG FOR THE TABLE IT STOOD FIRM’.
 

Pagan X

Well, if it is images that are an Hebrew alphabet book, it's more likely as humorous aids to the order which is necessary to know to play the card game correctly.

The astrological attributions of the Major Arcana of later occultists don't match the astrological attributions of the Sefer Yetzirah, so it does not appear as if the Tarot is encoding Jewish alphabet mysticism.

Literacy in Hebrew was not widespread among all adults; not only children but also women, servants, and those who couldn't afford formal schooling would find alphabetical cues on trump cards for a game to be amusing and useful.

If this is solely for gaming reasons, then it makes sense for The Fool, which trumps all other cards, to be the highest valued card and at the end of the sequence.
 

jmd

In the game of tarot (and though realise there are various versions), the Fool does not trump all other cards, but rather is used to 'excuse' oneself from having a turn and, unless played as last card, cannot be lost.

There is, then, a paradoxical sense in which it is both everywhere and last, as long as not played last.

With regards to kwaw's reply that he views it as "totally irrelevant" that only a few isolated cards have been shown to have alternative letter correlations, I simply do not agree. Of course, whether or not it is relevent is in part dependent on what is being presented.

In this case, it is not Kabalistic consideration (based on the Sefer Yetzirah or other texts), but on something far simpler that simply allows for another dimension to be both reflected and provides an order.

It is this which is of significance, and that show criticisms based on a few isolated lists to be inadequate. What Mark shows is that there is a meaningful reflection of the Hebrew alphabet, in order, in the Marseille standard sequence of the cards.

If this reflection was intentional, there may be other circumstantial evidence, such as other and different alphabetic sequences illustrated. And indeed, there are, which Mark also mentions. Furthermore, if intentional, but if applied to an already existent deck (such as non-Marseille early examplars), one would be able to detect some subtle differences that become standardised in favour of the alphabetic sequence - such as, in this case, the overall depiction as letter-shape of Alef and of Lamed.

What the critics have so far done is to say that they can find some lists for other cards, and thus miss the overall point, for even if there were to be shown to be a complete equivalent list for an alternative sequence, it would show at most that the language is rich. What would be missing from those lists is importantly the overall ordinal value of letter-and-card.

Showing that the Atouts reflect an abecedarium does not, in any case, constitute proof of intent, and Mark does not, to my knowledge, make that claim either. Rather, he is saying: look at this alphabetic sequence, and look at it in the context of the times which is also rich in circumstantial evidence that such may have been the case. Now, without starting from a biased GD-oriented presumption of any correlations that precludes this one, does not this seem a genuine possibility worth investigation?

And to me, thus far, the critics have replied: but look, I can come up with a list for some cards that reflect GD views, so where's your 'proof'!?
 

kwaw

Pagan X said:
If this is solely for gaming reasons, then it makes sense for The Fool, which trumps all other cards, to be the highest valued card and at the end of the sequence.

The fool does not trump all other cards, it excuses you from either following suit or playing a trump - it does not win the hand (at least in the traditional game, there may be variations).

kwaw
 

venicebard

kwaw said:
So it is #daleth that corresponds to Le Pendu? [And nun with XIII?]
Yes: D-duir-oak-door-dalet is bardic 12, N-nion-ash-handle-nun is bardic 13. These would be the esoteric signification, lamedh-mem the exoteric one. (In alef esoteric and exoteric are the same, being Unity.)
kwaw said:
BYMH – ELEVATED STAND FOR SPEAKERS, WOODEN PLATFORM, RAISED SEAT, WOODEN STAND FOR DISPLAYING GOODS, STAND FOR EXHIBITING TORAH
BYMS – IDOLATORS ALTAR, PEDESTAL
BSYS – ANYTHING THAT SERVES AS A STAND FOR SOMETHING [A STOOL, BENCH, TABLE, ETC] OR IS SUBSERVIENT TO ANOTHER OBJECT [IE, THE TABLE ON WHICH AN OBJECT IS PLACED], PEDESTAL, BASE, STEP [ROOT BSS , NITHPA NTBSS=TO REST SAFELY, FIRM BASIS AS IN ‘AS SOON AS THEY MADE A THIRD LEG FOR THE TABLE IT STOOD FIRM’.
Touche (w/ accent), sort of. However, none of these words are attested anciently, according to my source, so the question is: did you get these from medieval word-lists, or modern?
 

venicebard

Pagan X said:
Well, if it is images that are an Hebrew alphabet book, it's more likely as humorous aids to the order which is necessary to know to play the card game correctly.
I like the suggestion of humor here. Indeed the presence of humor is too often ignored in scholarship: I maintain, for instance, that the Odyssey is actually a satiric epic, not a heroic one (and that the Iliad was originally Anatolian but warped for propaganda purposes by that illiterate Greek hack, Homer).
Pagan X said:
The astrological attributions of the Major Arcana of later occultists don't match the astrological attributions of the Sefer Yetzirah, so it does not appear as if the Tarot is encoding Jewish alphabet mysticism.
Weak basis for such a decision, made weaker by the fact that indeed occultists followed Sefer Yetzirah in assigning the simple letters. I, however, do not. That is, yes the alef-bet order by which they are assigned their signs in SY is important but mainly as a coded jumbling of the more ancient calendar-order (imposed by the early bronze-age existence of ogam consaine, consonants-only ogham), conveying knowledge of the three main ways of assigning elements to quarters -- confirmation being that the original order makes the letters correspond in shape to their signs' physiological significance: samekh-tzaddi-cheyt-vav-ayin-qof-teyt-heh-zayin-yod-lamedh-nun, the heh that marks the Covenant in Abraham (from Abram) being the 8th sign (circumcision being on the 8th day), one's privates (scorpio).
Literacy in Hebrew was not widespread among all adults; not only children but also women, servants, and those who couldn't afford formal schooling would find alphabetical cues on trump cards for a game to be amusing and useful.
And perhaps items on the trumps were things their masters wished them to know Hebrew words for, so that commands might direct them thither.
 

kwaw

jmd said:
With regards to kwaw's reply that he views it as "totally irrelevant" that only a few isolated cards have been shown to have alternative letter correlations, I simply do not agree.

Fair enough:

AVVLTh - FOOL

BDYM – CONJUROR

GBYRH – MAIDEN, QUEEN MOTHER (Bride and Mother of the Lord. A title of the Shekinah, often imaged dressed as a ‘Bride' of the Lord’)

DBR – LEADER, TO LEAD [THE FLOCK], COMMAND; DBRH – TO LEAD, ALSO BEE, BIBLICAL HEROINE LEADER , AND PROPHETESS [DEBORAH - FEMALE LEADER], DBR – LEAD THE FLOCK, THE SWARM; DRIVE, COMMAND; LEADER

HGMN – GENERAL, HGMNYA –COMMANDERSHIP, COURT, ADMINISTRATION, HGMNYVT – STAFF OF COMMANDERSHIP,

VDAY, (VYDY) – THOU THE KNOWN ONE, WELL KNOWN, DISTINCTION (CONFESSION, FORGIVENESS [BY THE HIGH PRIEST], BENEVOLENCE)

ZVG – JOIN TOGETHER, COUPLE, MATCHMAKE, TO WED, JOIN IN WEDLOCK, PAIR, SET

ChBH – TO BE BELOVED, HELD IN HIGH ESTEEM, HONOUR;ChBSh – TO SADDLE, TO HARNESS [TO BRING UNDER CONTROL, INTO OBEDIENCE].

If a vessel is marked with a Teth, it means:
TBL – SUBJECT TO A TITHE [A MEASURED SHARE]; TRVTNY – A BALANCE FOR WEIGHING ACCURATELY.

YVM – LIGHT, TIME.

KVSh – SPINDLE; KRKR – TO MOVE IN A CIRCLE; ROUND; KLYL – CIRCLE, CROWN, TO CROWN.

LYBB – TO STRENGTHEN, MAKE COURAGEOUS ("the king took his son and made him courageous by making him attack the (tamed) lion"); LBYA - LION.

MYTH – PENALTY OF DEATH ; MYTVTA – DYING; MYTR – CORD, ROPE; MYTNA – DEATH, ROPE, DRAWING TOWARDS ONESELF.

NBLH – NATURAL DEATH; NFSh – DEATH.

SVD – DELIBERATION, COUNCIL, MYSTERY, SECRET (where the wine enters (where there is intemperance) counsel [SVD] leaves; where the wine has left (where there is temperance) deliberation [SVD] enters. He that is abstinent [temperate] is granted the counsel [SVD] of divine wisdom.
SVK – TO POUR; SVFQA – LARGE WINE VESSEL; SChT – CAUSE TO FLOW; SChF – TO TILT OVER, INVERT (“like two cups inverted one over the other:” :- v. SChYFA ‘AN INVERTED VESSEL’

OBVT – CHAIN, ROPE used to yoke (“at first the evil inclination resembles a thread of cobweb, and at the end it is like a wagon rope”); OBVDH – IDOLATRY, AN IDOL, A HEATHEN DIETY, STRANGE SERVICE/LABOUR (BENEATH ONE’S STATION); OBD – SLAVE, SERVANT, TO WORSHIP AN IDOL,

FAR – TO CUT THE CROWN OFF; FGVM – SEMI-CIRCULAR TURRET; FGYOH – STRIKING AGAINST.

TzVF – FLOOD, INUNDATE, CAUSE TO OVERFLOW; TzBO - HOSTS (of heaven = stars)

QBOA – PROCLAMATION OF NEW MOON DAY, BY WHICH THE LUNAR CALENDAR IS REGULATED. QDR - black, blackish, dark, darkened, heavily, mourn.

RShF - BURNING HEAT; RVMVLVS / RVMVS – ROMULUS AND REMUS THE TWO ORPHANS FOR WHOM THOU DIDST APPOINT A WOLF.

ShFVT, ShVT – JUDGEMENT; ShFR – TRUMPET

ThBL – WORLD

Kwaw