Significance of the year 1471? (Jodo-Camoin TdM deck) / Earliest cards

Ross G Caldwell

Diana said:
I have to agree with Lee that those of us who do speak and write English should provide English translations with our foreign language quotes. The forum will become incomprehensible otherwise to the majority of the membership and the moderators and firemaiden cannot be expected to translate everything.

HOWEVER: This must NOT stop our French speaking members from posting. Their posts will be translated as they go along (with sometimes a slight delay if a French speaking person is not on the boards at the time.) This is a notice only for our English speaking members.

I agree. I will always try to provide a translation, even if on the fly or imperfect (especially from Latin).

Nobody should stop posting anthing, in any language. Somehow, a way will be found to translate it.

But French is the most common second language quoted here, and there is no shortage of French speakers to do the translating.

Ross
 

firemaiden

Thanks for fixing the latin, Ross. It didn't seem like it made a lot of sense the way it was...

That's exciting news, Ross about the Spanish first mention.

Well, I for one would like to know, in the year 1337, how cosmopolitan was Marseilles. Because I would think, if Naip was a Saracen game, and Marseilles is a major port city full of Arabs, and Spanish, and Greeks, and people speaking every kind of language, including Flemish, I don't see why a game like Naip wouldn't also have a French-translation name. Also if the Arabs had Naip centuries before, I don't see why they wouldn't have already arrived in Marseilles ages earlier.

I see that the lycos site Namadev mentioned also has a much earlier mention:
  • ...a possible allusion to playing cards : the Lombard Papias, who lived in the year 1054, grammarian of Greek and the author of a dictionary, used this expression: mappa etiam dicitur vel forma ludorum" = "mappa - that means a sheet of paper, is also used to designate the form of a game". But it is doubtful that the term is equivalent to our word for playing card.
P.S. Regarding translations: I very much enjoy translating, but I would prefer it if native speakers of English would provide their own translations if humanly possible when quoting from French.
 

Ross G Caldwell

"That's exciting news, Ross about the Spanish first mention."

I think so too. But wouldn't you know, this book has got to be one of the rarest things out there. It is not in the SUDOC interlibrary catalogue of all of France, nor in the Bibliothèque nationale (!) - it is really scarce. I'll have to go to Barcelone for this one. Not too far, luckily.

But if anyone has 736 euros to spare, they can check for themselves - the book is for sale as -

Réf : 2773028 en vente à : Librairie Jérôme de Billy - Ecrire - Paris, France - 01 45 55 74 37

AMADES (J.), J. COLOMINES & P. VILA
Imatgeria popular catalana. Els Soldats i altres papers de rengles. Barcelona, 1936-1933, 2 vol. gr. in-4 toile éd. VII-216-XLVIII pp. Nbr. ill. dans le texte et 100 planches à double page dans le second volume, la plupart en couleurs. Tiré à 485 ex. num. - Prix : 736 €

http://www.livre-rare-book.com/Matieres/id/86d.html

"Well, I for one would like to know, in the year 1337, how cosmopolitan was Marseilles. Because I would think, if Naip was a Saracen game, and Marseilles is a major port city full of Arabs, and Spanish, and Greeks, and people speaking every kind of language, including Flemish, I don't see why a game like Naip wouldn't also have a French-translation name. Also if the Arabs had Naip centuries before, I don't see why they wouldn't have already arrived in Marseilles ages earlier."

You're absolutely right. There are plenty of ways to go about explaining the note, and we would expect the cards to be in Marseille by this time, if "Saracens" had them by 1337 (which they must have). Barcelona too was (and is) such a Port.

There has to be some good kind of information on Marseille on the internet, as well as at gallica. I've never looked.

Ross
 

Namadev

Translations

Diana said:
I have to agree with Lee that those of us who do speak and write English should provide English translations with our foreign language quotes. The forum will become incomprehensible otherwise to the majority of the membership and the moderators and firemaiden cannot be expected to translate everything.

HOWEVER: This must NOT stop our French speaking members from posting. Their posts will be translated as they go along (with sometimes a slight delay if a French speaking person is not on the boards at the time.) This is a notice only for our English speaking members.

Hi Diana,

I agree with your "moderation".
The problem I met in this particular topic is that my English isn't good enough for translating from French to English when the data is complex and requires pertinent and accurate translations(s) as on theses topics about ancient data relatives to the introduction of cards between 1300-1400.
What choice have I?
Either, I do not give the information I have because I cannot give an accurate translation and then I remain silent.
Either I give the information I have in French.
I understand that this situation can be annoying for others but what could I do?
The solution consisting in an approximative translation via web translator isn't "acceptable" in these complex matters.

It isn't the first time I meet this kind of problem.
On TarotL, I finally decided not to post anyting more than "web links" with a simple declarative phrase.
Ioften didn't go further in debates when I knew that I could not provide in plain English the argumentation.

Anyway, thanks to JMD, Firemaiden , Huck, Ross for their gracious translations.

Alain
 

Diana

Alain: You are MOST welcome to post in French! I was making this comment for our English speaking members. (I know how tricky translations are into our own mother-tongue, let alone into a language that is not our mother-tongue.)

This board must not be deprived of any contributions because of language differences. On the contrary - they provide for much colour!
 

Rusty Neon

Here's a short article in French on the History of Playing Cards and the Tarot de Marseille. Especially interesting is that this article is on the City of Marseilles' official municipal website. I guess you wouldn't see that in New Orleans. :) The article is in conjunction with a City-sponsored exhibit on the history of playing cards and the Tarot de Marseille.

http://www.mairie-marseille.fr/vivre/culture/musees/musexp3.htm
 

Namadev

Hi,

Not so surprizing, finally.
The TdM is part of the local cultutre of the City.
Morever the Vieux Musée has inherited the Donation of the Maison Camoin in 1971.
Normal for the Conservateur to write such an article.
[In France, near Paris, There already is another Museum in Issy-les Moulineaux called "Le musée de la Carte à Jouer", close to Thierry Depaulis.]

http://www.camoin.com/maison_camoin_fr/donation_camoin/donation_camoin.asp


Alain
 

firemaiden

Thank you Namadev and Ross, it is nice to see that up. Now... what about that 11 century "Lombard Papias" mention...?