Just Curious...

Amanda

I don't study the meaning of any structure at great historical depth, but Michael got me wondering (so here I am, perhaps Foolishly wandering) about Justice/Strength. Here is what I would like to know, as originally posted in the personality thread:

So... I'm just wondering. Why did Waite decide to keep Alpha-Omega over top the lady's head in Strength if he was going to strip it from Justice and switch them around?

The numbering actually makes more sense with Crowley, and if you re-order the cards by a different pattern. That is: Magician (1), Strength (11), World (21). All the ones are in the final position... keeping alpha/omega with Lust. Alpha part (Magician), Omega part (Strength) and continuity/the whole (World).
 

tarotbear

Not to be divisive so early (!) in the thread, but let's not forget Waite MAY have decided to do so but Pixie may have misunderstood him, or already had drawn it by the time Waite decided to change it ... those 'little' things we may never know. ;)
 

Richard

Waite mostly followed the pattern of the TdM, in which a lemniscate (sideways 8) is suggested by the hat brims in the Magician and Strength but not in Justice.
 

Attachments

  • lemniscate.jpg
    lemniscate.jpg
    128.8 KB · Views: 227

Amanda

Not to be divisive so early (!) in the thread, but let's not forget Waite MAY have decided to do so but Pixie may have misunderstood him, or already had drawn it by the time Waite decided to change it ... those 'little' things we may never know. ;)

True. But what of human nature? A time when women were secondary, to be looked over/after by males... and Waite came after Crowley, right? I would think the pressure would have been on to out-do the first to do it. To make an improvement to a perceived flaw. This would lead me to believe that it was a deliberate choice.
 

Zephyros

If I understand correctly what is meant is actually the leminscate, the figure eight symbolizing infinity. In several instances Waite deliberately chose not to reinvent the wheel and stick with traditional images from older decks. In this case La Force has a hat shaped like a figure eight, and so the image was kept in the RWS. Crowley kept the original numbering while Waite stuck to Golden Dawn sensibilities.

Was that the question?
 

Amanda

Waite mostly followed the pattern of the TdM, in which a lemniscate (sideways 8) is suggested by the hat brims in the Magician and Strength but not in Justice.

Interesting... so he wasn't checking out Crowley's work?
Why then, does Crowley have alpha-omega in Adjustment?
 

Amanda

If I understand correctly what is meant is actually the leminscate, the figure eight symbolizing infinity. In several instances Waite deliberately chose not to reinvent the wheel and stick with traditional images from older decks. In this case La Force has a hat shaped like a figure eight, and so the image was kept in the RWS. Crowley kept the original numbering while Waite stuck to Golden Dawn sensibilities.

Was that the question?

Yes, the leminscate -- it's connected to Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, infinity, isn't it?
 

Zephyros

Interesting... so he wasn't checking out Crowley's work?
Why then, does Crowley have alpha-omega in Adjustment?

Let's get some order here, shall we? :)

There is no Alpha-Omega on Waite's Strength, but the figure eight LRichard spoke about. The Alpha and Omega on Adjustment is there to hint at the idea of cause and effect, that each cause has its immediate effect and all is regulated by Adjustment. Indeed, due to the name of the Book of Law, Liber Al vel Legis which in Hebrew comes as Aleph Lamed, the letters of the Fool and Adjustment, one can surmise that the Fool is the original cause while Adjustment enacts its corresponding effect. Adjustment is known as the consort of the Fool because of this. While the two symbols are connected, I don't think they can be equated to the same idea being conveyed.

As to why he didn't check out Crowley's work, this is because firstly the RWS was published long before the Thoth. Secondly they despised each other, especially as Crowley was a renegade and was instrumental in the dissolution of the GD. Besides, Crowley was "evil," and Waite probably didn't hold with that sort of thing. })
 

Amanda

While the two symbols are connected, I don't think they can be equated to the same idea being conveyed.

I really don't mean to be that annoying person... but, why not?

As to why he didn't check out Crowley's work, this is because firstly the RWS was published long before the Thoth. Secondly they despised each other, especially as Crowley was a renegade and was instrumental in the dissolution of the GD. Besides, Crowley was "evil," and Waite probably didn't hold with that sort of thing. })

I had a feeling they despised each other. I for some reason, thought Waite made the change after Crowley did the Thoth (I don't know where that came from though).
 

Zephyros

How much they hated each other can be glimpsed in Crowley's brilliant review of Waite's deck in the Equinox.

www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no3/eqi03014.html

Scroll down until you get to the section entitled "The Key to the Tarot."