OOTK initial step - four piles - let's try it

thorhammer

Not much to add to this - it's really a very good summary of the situation, I think. I especially like your read of the 2 of Pents ("harmonious change" :heart:

)

I'd also be inclined to read a few more things in this spread, branching further than just EDs, as I think that this step in the OOTK lends itself to a full reading rather than a straight analysis of the EDs and single cards. I see a link between the 2 of Pents and the Lovers in their inherent duality, so I'd read that as a fundamental change in Todd's relationships with people, particularly with regards to the way he thinks about himself in relation to other people.

The Tower and Lovers beside one another definitely bespeak a shakeup; I think that it denotes that his current direction of friendship and romantic liason will change for good as he begins to indulge a more creative and less mainstream way of thinking and behaving. This change is supported by the weakened 3 of Wands "Lord of Virtue", a very male card, here shown as being dampened by Todd's venture into the watery world of his own inspiration.

That card in particular would make me wonder if Todd had repressed homosexual tendencies which might be emerging. But I'd likely not say anything unless/until it was reinforced by the next steps.

\m/ Kat

thorhammer

Another querent:

Maggie (18) works in a corporate environment as an office junior. Recently she's had a problem with a female senior work colleague who seems to be victimising her without reason. Maggie would like to know the motivation behind her colleague's malicious actions and how she (Maggie) can try to alleviate the enmity in the situation. Her significator (in case it comes up) is the Prince of Swords (Air of Air).

Using the Thoth:

......3 of Disks..........Knight of Cups............7 of Disks............2 of Disks.....
.....Earth in Earth......Water in Air...........Earth in Water.........Earth in Fire...
........Strong.............Mod. Strong.............Mod. Strong.........Mod. Strong..

The 2 of Disks makes me think that it's not as bad as Maggie thinks; that it's a natural part of office dynamics that she's still getting used to (as she's quite young and has just come out of school) and perhaps blowing out of proportion in her own mind. The 7 of Disks suggests that confronting her superior about it or taking any overt action would make the situation worse. The Knight of Cups urges her to rise above her own feelings (maybe she's socialising too much with the other people in the office?) and take the challenge being presented her; that of relating to someone who's not a friend, teacher or family member. The 3 of Disks encourages a diligent attitude to her work, with due attention to all facets, not just one or two. The senior's demeanour could be nothing more than impatience at forgetfulness or a lack of initiative on Maggie's part.

I think this reading basically says that Maggie's being a bit of a drama queen about it all

though I certainly wouldn't phrase it as such :laugh:

Her concern is a reflection of the struggle young people have when entering the workplace where care and concern for their wellbeing and happiness cannot be taken for granted as it can at school and home.

Summary: A work environment is different to school dynamics, and more is expected of you in this situation. You need to pay more attention to your duties and go above and beyond each separate task to tie them together, begin to anticipate what will be required of you rather than simply reacting, and allow your mind to become accustomed to the new (to you) way of relating to the world. Confrontation is not recommended; your senior does not have it in for you but might start to if you accuse her of such!

\m/ Kat

rif

My turn for a :heart:

, I like your wording about the 3W dampened by his inspiration. And I was :surprise:

by your reading homosexual tendencies. I don't disagree, it's just an interp that comes with greater experience than I have. Is that because you see the masculine energies being dampened by the feminine? Is that a pre-existing meaning for you?

===
I like your new reading, as usual. I like the way you pulled your summary together more than mine; it's arguably more realistic. You and I had some overlap in interpretation, and some difference. The biggest thing is that you focused on Maggie in your reading; but I focused on the co-worker, since I felt that's where the first part of Maggie's question was directed. This lead to a difference in our interps of 2D; which diverted our respective outcomes.

The 2 of Disks makes me think that it's not as bad as Maggie thinks; that it's a natural part of office dynamics that she's still getting used to

Because change is happening but is moderately strong?

The 7 of Disks suggests that confronting her superior about it or taking any overt action would make the situation worse.

A need for Maggie to consolidate herself, so to speak, at work?

When I looked at the cards, I immediately associated the Kn-Cups as an aspect of this other woman. I get a sense of her having emotional reactions to issues; her heart is not aligned with her head.

Lot of disks suggest this woman is probably in a rut.

Something in this woman's life has changed (2P); I see it in her past due to all the earth. This past change is having an effect on the present.

She (still the co-worker) was waiting for the change to bear fruit (7P), but while she waited things stagnated and she perhaps missed the obvious. (In my card, a man watches a plant with coins growing, but the coins are dull/old and he misses the rose growing at his feet). She feels bitter about this.

3D: The co-worker's situation isn't going to change, and/or Maggie needs to marshal her resources at the workplace, to be self-assured.

My summary: Something happened to the co-worker that was expected to bring a beneficial change (such as a new project or a promotion), but didn't bring the success hoped for. The co-worker takes her frustration -- and blame -- out on Maggie, even though she knows Maggie's not at fault. Maggie could be compassionate to balance out this woman's emotionally driven thought process; and Maggie should remember that she is a good, self-sufficient worker who doesn't need this woman's approval. (And by keeping true to her own position, she could avoid being entangled in office politics with the other woman.)

thorhammer

rif said:
And I was by your reading homosexual tendencies. I don't disagree, it's just an interp that comes with greater experience than I have. Is that because you see the masculine energies being dampened by the feminine? Is that a pre-existing meaning for you?

Not pre-existing, no - it just occured to me because the 3 of Wands in the Thoth is very masculine and seems to me to be about the emergence and ascendancy of masculine energies; its position seemed to suggest that those energies were somehow receding for Todd.

The biggest thing is that you focused on Maggie in your reading; but I focused on the co-worker, since I felt that's where the first part of Maggie's question was directed.

I'm a big believer in asking questions about oneself, or the querent directly; I feel wrong *spying* on someone (even someone non-existent :laugh:

) and so in all my readings I focus on the querent. Ultimately, the information arises anyway, but couched in terms that empower the querent rather than sort of pressing circumstances on them. This, I guess, is a topic for another thread - just wanted to let you know where I'm *coming from*, as it were.

Because change is happening but is moderately strong?

Er, yeah

that'll do LOL . . . no, seriously, it was the first card that told me that things were happening to change Maggie's fundamental understanding of her place in the world (i.e. Lord of Change in Fire - change is faster) It was instrumental in forming my impression of Maggie as a bit of a drama queen and playing down her tendency to focus on someone else's behaviour; hence, to help her to focus on her own behaviour and what she could do in order to grow into an unfamiliar climate. Does that make sense?

A need for Maggie to consolidate herself, so to speak, at work?

Not so much; just that that particular route leads to a dead end. I felt that really clearly.

Something in this woman's life has changed (2P); I see it in her past due to all the earth. This past change is having an effect on the present.

I really like this association, rif! I think it would be easy to fall into a trap of thinking of Earth as "past" all the time, and will ensure I don't, but it's certainly something to think about. Being weighed down by all that baggage, drag and inertia . . . Likes

3D: The co-worker's situation isn't going to change, and/or Maggie needs to marshal her resources at the workplace, to be self-assured.

I'm not challenging this: but how did you arrive at this interp??

I see a real difference in our reading styles, and it stems as much from personal differences as from the use of scenic as opposed to non-scenic (or "moody" as some would have it) minors. Not saying either is better than the other, you understand.

But Thoth is the best

ROFL

\m/ Kat

rif

thorhammer said:
I think it would be easy to fall into a trap of thinking of Earth as "past" all the time, and will ensure I don't, but it's certainly something to think about. Being weighed down by all that baggage, drag and inertia . . . Likes

I'm not challenging this: but how did you arrive at this interp??

Yeah, I wouldn't say that all the time either, but in the context of this reading it seemed appropriate to me. In comparison, I know someone who focuses on the H'/Earth pile as being about the future.

How did I get at the 3 of Disks meaning... well, earth in Earth is very strong, stable; there's a quite solid foundation in H' for the 3D. Suggests that things aren't moving, and 3D I am equating to work; so for the co-worker, it seems like things aren't going to change anytime soon.

I remembered at this point of my readnig that Maggie was also looking for advice; so if I looked to H'/Earth as representing the material here-and-now, and the 3D as the situation for advice, I focus on Lord of Work (Thoth) or Lord of Material World (GD); and even the RWS skilled labor. It all blended for me as being masterful at work, which I read as the necessary attitude for Maggie to carry. This turned out to be acting as a strong and self-confident woman, and showing this co-worker that she isn't going to be affected negatively. Does that make sense?

I see a real difference in our reading styles, and it stems as much from personal differences as from the use of scenic as opposed to non-scenic (or "moody" as some would have it) minors. Not saying either is better than the other, you understand.

But Thoth is the best ROFL

Very different styles. Perhaps from decks; and also from our individual understanding of the cards. But I like that, as I think we learn more from each other that way. Or maybe it's just me.

Well, my current deck is infused by the Thoth, so that should be good. :heart:

I think I'll post one of these readings with the Thoth, and see how it comes out. I tend to get direct info from the Thoth.

Regardless, I'll post something soon. But I'd like to reiterate, for any lurkers, that you're welcome to join in with us. We'll welcome the company!

rif

new reading

I'm going to have to make this brief, my cat won't stay off my lap (where I'm typing into my laptop), and I need to tend to another needy household animal. Pets!

Damon is a 32 yr old who's met an intriguing young woman, and has had a really wonderful couple of dates with her. She's pretty and a good conversationalist; or so he judges. However, Damon feels there is something behind the surface, and that she seems too good to be true. Or perhaps he is just letting fear of rejection get the better of him. He wants to know if his fears are irrational, because he is interested in pursuing her further. What can he expect from this relationship?

Lo Scarabeo tarot. King is like RWS King, seated on a throne (Fire of...). Knave is like a Princess. Damon's sig is the Knight of Cups (Air of...).

King of Cups ------- Knave of Chalices --- Queen of Wands --- 5 of Swords
Moderately Strong --- Somewhat Strong ------- Weak ---- Moderate Strong

5 Swords: Strengthened, suggests a resounding defeat. In Y/Fire, suggests a reaction to Damon's initial ardour, perhaps due to an argument (or certainly stemming from his thoughts).

Queen Wands: Fire in H/Water; weakened. Normally could be a strong, magnetic personality; a woman with charisma or ambition. Here, ill-dignified; so this suggests that these qualities come out negatively, perhaps in the sense of brooding and occasional outbursts (since this is the watery, emotional position).

Knave of Chalices: Seems like the quality of enthusiastic emotion that reflects the beginning of a relationship. This is going by the knave and cups as an initiating emotion; and influenced by the GD meaning of knave/princess as "opinions, thoughts, ideas." This is somewhat strong, and in V/Air. Perhaps this is Damon's idealized relationship, as he imagines it but it will may not be (thought + emotion; no initiating action of fire or grounding of earth).

King of Chalices: Represents qualities of friendly or amiability, and being master of one's emotional world. In H'/Earth, this is perhaps reflective of Damon's reality, his self-foundation. (Or his perceived reality.)

Overall, cups dominate and pentacles are absent. Suggests a situation heavy in emotions, possibly idealized infatuation or romantic daydreams on Damon's part. Nothing here to suggest reality in the form of earth. In my deck, the King of Chalices has a crab advisor on his shoulder, and he looks to the Knave of Chalices; she has a fish advistor, and looks back at the King. If these two cards represent the two people involved, there could be infatuation on both sides, with both sides seeking advice from respective peers while maintaining an imagined fantasy about the situation -- rather than getting themselves involved directly and learning what things really are.

Summary: I don't find this reading bodes well for Damon's interest in this girl. I think each is locked into an imaginative longing of what a relationship should be like, and this new relationship is no exception. They may seek others' feedback (including this reading) instead of exploring the emotional territory on their own. I think the young woman in question has a brooding or tempestuous hidden side that comes out at times (which means Damon's intuition was spot on!). This will likely lead to short but intense arguments that Damon loses. Or perhaps he'd be browbeaten.

Tread carefully, Damon!

(So much for brevity. But at least my cat lost interest.)

thorhammer

rif said:
King of Cups ------- Knave of Chalices --- Queen of Wands --- 5 of Swords
Moderately Strong --- Somewhat Strong ------- Weak ---- Moderate Strong

Out of curiosity, what is your distinction between moderately strong and somewhat strong, and how do you arrive at those respective formulae?

Queen Wands: Fire in H/Water; weakened. Normally could be a strong, magnetic personality; a woman with charisma or ambition. Here, ill-dignified; so this suggests that these qualities come out negatively, perhaps in the sense of brooding and occasional outbursts (since this is the watery, emotional position).

Very impressive. This is really something for me to bear in mind; you've summarised someone's personality so very well here.
**************************************************

My turn - using the Thoth:

rif said:
Damon is a 32 yr old who's met an intriguing young woman, and has had a really wonderful couple of dates with her. She's pretty and a good conversationalist; or so he judges. However, Damon feels there is something behind the surface, and that she seems too good to be true. Or perhaps he is just letting fear of rejection get the better of him. He wants to know if his fears are irrational, because he is interested in pursuing her further. What can he expect from this relationship?

Knight of Cups ........ Princess of Cups .......... Queen of Wands ............ 5 of Swords
Mod. strong................ Mod. strong ................... Weak .................. Mod. Strong

Venus in Aquarius (5 of Swords) appearing in the Fire pack says that both are too eager to make something of a relationship and are coming at it far too strongly, with little regard for consequence or convention.

The Queen (Water of Fire), ill-dignified, suggests rages and petulant sulks, over-reaction and selfishness. Though normally I don't automatically view Courts as people, the description of the woman involved matches the qualities of the Queen of Wands so I think it's a good fit. I think she's unpredictable and autocratic.

The Princess (Earth of Water) in Air offers the only earthy influence in the spread, and all three elements are cool, while her general self-involvement doesn't really give much hope for a functional mode of relating to someone else.

The Knight (Fire of Water) in Earth represents the opposite of the Queen above, suggesting that they could be a good match. He is dragged down by all that passive elemental energy and it is likely that this represents Damon being dominated by the fierce Queen. I see a tendency toward narcissism in Damon, which is fed by this girl's outward attractiveness.

In short: Although there is chemistry between the two, it's not a good match and both are pursuing the other for the wrong reasons.

\m/ Kat

rif

thorhammer said:
Out of curiosity, what is your distinction between moderately strong and somewhat strong, and how do you arrive at those respective formulae?

Augh, you caught me in a possible inconsistency!

Fire - Fire: Strong. Seems like it should be very strong.
Fire - Water: Weak.
Fire - Air: Moderately strong. Two active elements together.
Fire - Earth: ?? If it's friendly, then according to GD traditions, it should be stronger. For two cards, I don't know if the degree of strength even matters. Since these elements are friendly and neutral (one active, one passive) it seems to me like a less-strong combo. I'm sure BookT makes the difference somewhere between somewhat strong and moderately strong; but I'm not sure where that was.

So I read Princess of Cups as somewhat strong: water in V/Air; passive and active elements together. I think in practical terms it makes little difference for this phase of OOTK, so maybe I'll stick with moderately strong.

Do you think of the minors as more astrological forces than as cards? I notice that you tend to list the astrological attributions first. I like your 5S interp a lot. Can you explain how you got it? My astro is still a work-in-progress.

I don't have anything to add to your interp; I think it's pretty good. I especially liked the parts you got from the Knight, with the fiery Queen dominating and Damon's narcissistic tendencies, fed by the girl's beauty.

And this time we came up with the same concept: not a good pairing.

thorhammer

rif said:
Do you think of the minors as more astrological forces than as cards? I notice that you tend to list the astrological attributions first. I like your 5S interp a lot. Can you explain how you got it? My astro is still a work-in-progress.

Hmm, good question. It's a thing I do uniquely with the Thoth, and I think it's largely because I've used the astrological (and, to a lesser extent, the Sephirotic) correspondences of the Thoth as a springboard for learning. I find the astro meanings very helpful in getting a feel for the pips, and I guess in a way I

use them as a bit of a crutch reading with this deck.

I'll come back with another soon.

\m/ Kat

thorhammer

So much for "soon" - sorry, rif, and any lurkers who might like to join us!!!!

How's this one (fictional):

Andrea (36) has been estranged from her father for about 12 years. He has recently contacted her and expressed a desire to mend the relationship. She is torn by this possibility; on one hand she does want a closer familial situation, whilst on the other she struggles to come to terms with forgiving him. She wants an indication of the outcome of trying to talk to him.

Using the Thoth, as usual:

.....Heh (final)..........Vav..........Heh (initial)..........Yod.....
.....Earth.................Air...............Water..............Fire.....
...7 of Cups........Hierophant......Kn Swords......Princess Disks

The Princess of Disks is moderately strong and probably represents Andrea in a position of being exploded out of her comfort zone.
The Knight of Swords (Fiery part of Air) I would say is slightly ill-dignified and suggests that clarity of communication will be difficult; the waters will be muddied by history and recrimination.
The Hierophant is ill-dignified and likely represents the father, here breaking out of a safe role to make an overture to the daughter. The connotations of the card might point to the original cause of the familial rift.
The 7 of Cups is moderately strong but that's not a great thing with this card. The stagnant water is further stagnated in the Earth pack and suggests that associating with the father will not bring any clarification or closure for either of them; rather, it will breed further resentment and ill-will.

Whatcha think, rif?

\m/ Kat