Golden Dawn vs. Thelema

foolMoon

It seems a great book ravenest. I checked it out and quite expensive in paper copy. But thankfully PDF version was available for free download, so got a copy for myself for future read :)

Thank you so much for the info.
 

The Happy Squirrel

From that same perspective the notion that Jesus suffered and so we should all hope to suffer too is a complete nonsense.


From my understanding of the teaching Jesus, he suffered so that we don't have to. So this stance you are quoting here is the stance of the Golden Dawn?

Sorry if this is a stupid question I am a beginner :)
 

Always Wondering

I missed this thread earlier this year.

Aeon418 said:
The personality does not evolve. It just relaxes enough to let more of the True Self be born through it.

You put this nicely, in a way that got through some "highly evolved" defenses. :laugh:
 

Aeon418

From my understanding of the teaching Jesus, he suffered so that we don't have to.
Vicarious Atonement. He died for your sins, not your suffering. According to Christianity, God is reconciled with sinful humanity through the death of his only son. (Although the lack of Original Sin makes one wonder what the point was in the first place? :confused:)

So this stance you are quoting here is the stance of the Golden Dawn?
The Golden Dawn includes the symbolism of suffering in it's thematic pattern of initiation. This follows the precedent established by Jesus who specifically bound suffering to his realization of godhead.
Mark 8:31 said:
And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.
The Golden Dawn follows this pattern by having the candidate for Adeptship clad in a "Robe of mourning" and wrapped in the "chain of humility", before being bound to the "Cross of Suffering." In essence it is a glorification of suffering as an attribute of righteousness and a prerequisite to the attainment of the godhead.
The Symbol of Suffering is the Symbol of Strength .... If ye be crucified with Christ, ye shall also reign with Him.
Thelema on the other hand rejects this outright. This is one reason why Crowley refers to the The Hanged Man card as the Cenotaph.
Sorry if this is a stupid question I am a beginner :)
It's not stupid at all. This stuff can be difficult to understand at the best of times.
 

Aeon418

You put this nicely, in a way that got through some "highly evolved" defenses. :laugh:
An old teacher of mine used a rather more colourful metaphor that he claimed to have chosen just for me. :)

"You know how painful it can be sometimes when you're taking a really big sh..." :bugeyed:

What a joker! :laugh:
 

The Happy Squirrel

Vicarious Atonement. He died for your sins, not your suffering. According to Christianity, God is reconciled with sinful humanity through the death of his only son. (Although the lack of Original Sin makes one wonder what the point was in the first place? :confused:)


The Golden Dawn includes the symbolism of suffering in it's thematic pattern of initiation. This follows the precedent established by Jesus who specifically bound suffering to his realization of godhead.

The Golden Dawn follows this pattern by having the candidate for Adeptship clad in a "Robe of mourning" and wrapped in the "chain of humility", before being bound to the "Cross of Suffering." In essence it is a glorification of suffering as an attribute of righteousness and a prerequisite to the attainment of the godhead.

Thelema on the other hand rejects this outright. This is one reason why Crowley refers to the The Hanged Man card as the Cenotaph.

It's not stupid at all. This stuff can be difficult to understand at the best of times.


I see what has been termed as 'original sin' to our human basic tendencies which create the human condition which humanities have been struggling with from the beginning time. But that's just me.

As for suffering, it is interesting to think this idea may not be as universal amongst various Christian teachings as we might think. I am not sure. I grew up Roman Catholic so arguably the more prone to the glorification of suffering than other types of Christianity. I am not sure. But this emphasis on suffering, I always wonder if this is a particular school of thought within Christianity rather than Christianity. I don't know. The western take on Christianity seems to always be the loudest throughout history. So I suppose the GD's take on it would be based on that view. Hm. Something for me to think about.
 

Zephyros

I don't know the particulars of many Christian sects, but it seems to me that the GD espoused a certain universal idea of suffering that was not necessarily Christian. Their whole Osiris "thing" shows that it was known that that cycle was far older than Christianity, but it was still thought to be a universal law, the old Aeon IAO formula. A magickal formula is one that describes humanity's level of perception and general movement (kind of).

In that sense Thelema is somewhat geared at those who would understand the symbolic language used and would respond. The idea of suffering and redemption is found in different religions (Joseph, for example, has a life very similar to Jesus in broad terms) and Thelema does not put itself to do away with only the Christian ideal of suffering, but of all the "dying gods."
 

Always Wondering

An old teacher of mine used a rather more colourful metaphor that he claimed to have chosen just for me. :)

"You know how painful it can be sometimes when you're taking a really big sh..." :bugeyed:

What a joker! :laugh:
:laugh: Very apropos right now. I was thinking child birth but this is so pragmatic.
 

Aeon418

I don't know the particulars of many Christian sects, but it seems to me that the GD espoused a certain universal idea of suffering that was not necessarily Christian.
The theme of suffering is not exclusive to Christianity, but it still rams that message home very effectively.

While the Osirian myth lays down the basic structure of the death and resurrection motif, that same myth is essentially silent on Osiris' suffering. I suppose you just have to assume he suffered. But it's not until the appearance of the last God-Man of the Osirian age, Jesus, that resurrection and suffering are explicitly bonded together.

The crucifixion story is pretty much the basic thematic pattern of the personality and it's struggle to conform itself with the True Will. (The only real choice open to the personality.) The Osirian legend doesn't really make the same impact, even though it provides the 'symbolic umbrella' under which the Jesus myth rests.
Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." When he had said this, he breathed his last.