What would you say constitutes a Thoth deck?

Zephyros

Recently this question has been going around, and I was curious as to peoples' opinions on this. Do you feel it has to do with the card ordering and structure, or perhaps the underlying philosophy? Perhaps you feel that the Thoth is one of a kind, and there are none of its kind?

My opinion is the latter, and I am a purist in that regard. However, one can also recognize Thelemic decks that may not model themselves directly on the Thoth, but share its spirit and themes. I classify something like the Tabula Mundi or the Via in this category. While they are not the "word of the prophet" directly, they do offer an interesting perspective on many of the themes dealt with in the Thoth.

I suppose Thelema is so obscure, people just lump all decks dealing with it as "Thothy," even when they most certainly are not. However, I think a more accurate classification would give more freedom to both deck creators as well as students, since they could study Thelema through these decks without the shadow of the Thoth dominating everything (as it tends to do).

I've also seen people erroneously refer to any complicated esoteric deck as "Thothy." Personal opinions aside, that's just wrong. :)

So what's your opinion? I recall a similar thread in TD, but it makes sense to have this discussion in our home turf, and people and changed, etc.
 

La Force

Recently this question has been going around, and I was curious as to peoples' opinions on this. Do you feel it has to do with the card ordering and structure, or perhaps the underlying philosophy? Perhaps you feel that the Thoth is one of a kind, and there are none of its kind?

My opinion is the latter, and I am a purist in that regard. However, one can also recognize Thelemic decks that may not model themselves directly on the Thoth, but share its spirit and themes. I classify something like the Tabula Mundi or the Via in this category. While they are not the "word of the prophet" directly, they do offer an interesting perspective on many of the themes dealt with in the Thoth.

I suppose Thelema is so obscure, people just lump all decks dealing with it as "Thothy," even when they most certainly are not. However, I think a more accurate classification would give more freedom to both deck creators as well as students, since they could study Thelema through these decks without the shadow of the Thoth dominating everything (as it tends to do).

I've also seen people erroneously refer to any complicated esoteric deck as "Thothy." Personal opinions aside, that's just wrong. :)

So what's your opinion? I recall a similar thread in TD, but it makes sense to have this discussion in our home turf, and people and changed, etc.

How can I say this; I will give it a go

Okay for me depending on the deck, and the vibe I get from it, I'll be flipping through the cards you get this feeling of the underlying of the deck. That probably just went over your head. moving on

Structure is a second hint (card order), Justice 8 and Strength/Lust 11

Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, Rosetta Tarot, Tabula Mundi, Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal, and others along this line, I would call almost Thoth clones

Night Sun Tarot would also fall into Thothy decks

Tarot of Vampyres or Nicoletta Ceccoli Tarot, I would classify as Themed Thothy decks.

I agree that some decks that are esoteric are not Thothy.

Sometimes for me I don't like the imagery of the Thoth, depending on my mood or stage in my growth, but want a themed Thothy deck to work with, following Thelema. I have different images to look at.

Does this make sense.
 

The Happy Squirrel

A deck which design and operation entrenched heavily within the system of Kabbalah, astrology, and the Golden Dawn.
 

gregory

I don't think that is close to half enough.

I'd agree with closrapexa - it's one of a kind and there is no other. There are a few which encompass parts of it - the Rosetta in particular - and Ceremonial Magick and Liber-T - but none IS a Thoth deck.
 

The Happy Squirrel

I guess Thoth tarot is Crowley's tarot. The others aren't. Except for Etteilla's? I am new to this so my stand is obviously still evolving.
 

smw

J
I suppose Thelema is so obscure, people just lump all decks dealing with it as "Thothy," even when they most certainly are not. However, I think a more accurate classification would give more freedom to both deck creators as well as students, since they could study Thelema through these decks without the shadow of the Thoth dominating everything (as it tends to do).

Sounds like being in the shadow of the Crowley Mothership....:laugh:
 

Aeon418

Aleister Crowley said:
From the foregoing it will be clear that the Tarot illustrates, first of all, the Tree of Life in its universal aspect, and secondly, the particular comment illustrating that phase of the Tree of Life which is of peculiar interest to those persons charged with the guardianship of the human race at the particular moment of the production of any given authorised pack.

Or in other words: Qabalistic Tarot structure + Thelema = Thoth Tarot.

Aleister Crowley said:
It has consequently been the endeavour of the present Scribe to preserve those essential features of the Tarot which are independent of the periodic changes of Aeon, while bringing up to date those dogmatic and artistic features of the Tarot which have become unintelligible. The art of progress is to keep intact the Eternal; yet to adopt an advance-guard, perhaps in some cases almost revolutionary, position in respect of such accidents as are subject to the empire of Time.
Aleister Crowley said:
.... may this Tarot serve as a chart for the bold seamen of the New Aeon, to guide them across the Great Sea of Understanding to the City of the Pyramids!
What uniquely qualifies Crowley to present this new chart to shores unknown? He mapped his own journey there. The Thoth Tarot is the fruit of that journey.
 

Zephyros

I'm actually surprised at your definition, Aeon. You're far more lenient than I am, unless you mean that only Crowley can deal with the subject of Thelema.
 

Aeon418

I'm actually surprised at your definition, Aeon. You're far more lenient than I am, unless you mean that only Crowley can deal with the subject of Thelema.
Lenient? Me? :bugeyed: :laugh:

I wouldn't go so far as to say that only Crowley can deal with the subject of Thelema. But he is the one who explored, developed, and articulated the key doctrines and ideas behind Thelema. Consequently he had a depth of understanding and level of insight that has yet to be equalled (and probabaly won't). After all much of the, for want of a better term, "Thelemic transmission" was aimed directly at him in an intensely personal way. And only by extension does it become more generalised and given wider applicability to the rest of us.

How do I see this playing out in the arena of so-called Thoth related decks.

1) Attack of the Clones! Copies of the original "map", made by "cartographers" who are not always fully (or even partially) aware of what they are copying and why. This same phenomenon is rampant on the RWS clone scene, where the same basic imagery is churned out again and again in different disguises, but often without a real understanding of the underlying meaning of the symbolism. "Polly wanna cracker!"

2) Thelemic inspired decks that reflect the relative understanding of the deck creator. An example can be seen in Lon Milo DuQuette's, Tarot of Ceremonial Magick (which I love BTW). In the Thoth Tarot Crowley changed the position of the four elemental Kerubim to reflect the New Aeon doctrine of N.O.X.. But Lon, perhaps not fully understanding the importance of the switch, went with tradition and the formula of L.V.X.. (This same thing has been repeated in other Thelemic inspired decks.)

Is that harsh enough for you? Or do you still think I've sold out and gone soft? :laugh:
 

Zephyros

No, I would never accuse you of being soft!

But I guess we're in general agreement. But then, one of the things I find so fascinating about the Book of Thoth is that although the tone is generally authoritative, here and there you can find hints of Crowley betraying his own lack of understanding, he's exploring some ideas with you. He certainly felt that the deck was greater than himself, and a vehicle of conveying not his own ideas, but those of Thelema. Some things were included in the deck simply because they had to be there, whether he understood why or not.

So in some ways the Thoth is in itself a Thoth-inspired deck based on Crowley's relative understanding.