Vision Quest - Thoth based deck

DesertDream

The personal characteristics of a creator may have nothing at all to do with the value of his creations.

Richard Wagner was a thoroughly disgusting womanizer and anti-Semite. Yet his magnificent operas are appreciated by women as well as Jewish music lovers. See, for example, http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/movies/stephen-fry-narrates-the-documentary-wagner-me.html?_r=0. You will find similar expressions of appreciation of Wagner's work in various Jewish publications. (Do a Google search.)

I admit that I used to let my opinion of an artist's life influence my judgment of his or her work, but I later came to believe that inspiration was not necessarily influenced by their character or morality (or lack thereof).

I see absolutely no evidence of Crowley's supposedly unsavory reputation in the Thoth deck, so I do not thereby deprive myself of enjoying its excellence.

I agree with you. But wasnt the artist of the deck a woman? I think im going to sell the deck anyhow since ill never figure it out LOL
 

Freddie

I think what you trying to find is the Golden Dawn Tarot system. The keywords written on the minor arcana are from the Golden Dawn. You can use this system with pretty much any deck, even those with pictorial minors like Rider-Waite.

There are a fair amount of decks that resemble the Thoth look. When I get a chance I will list some on here for you as I am at work right now.






Freddie
 

DesertDream

I think what you trying to find is the Golden Dawn Tarot system. The keywords written on the minor arcana are from the Golden Dawn. You can use this system with pretty much any deck, even those with pictorial minors like Rider-Waite.

There are a fair amount of decks that resemble the Thoth look. When I get a chance I will list some on here for you as I am at work right now.






Freddie

Thank you Freddie!!!! Im not in the market for another thoth based deck. But thanks for recomending the golden dawn tarot system. Ill look into it!
 

Michael Sternbach

I agree that he was brilliant thats not the issue. Ive looked up a lot of VQ cards in the deck and I have no doubt that it copys the Thoth however. So i dont know why it wouldnt be in the same catagory? If it has very similar pictures in the pips wouldnt it be ment to read like the Thoth? I cant deny the obvious inspiration of the deck. Im wondering if i should post pictures of all the cards directly copying the deck? Lol

I do agree with you on your rider and thoth comparison though.

Even though the VQ may graphically resemble the Thoth to a degree, there is much more to be considered in determining if it's truly a Thoth derivative. As Freddie has said, the Thoth is based on the Golden Dawn system, which includes titles, decans, colour scales, Hebrew letters, and further attributions. Crowley did adhere to that system in many ways although he also took certain liberties, as did Waite. Since their days, a number of decks have been created as attempts to incorporate the Golden Dawn outlines more thoroughly.

In what little I have seen of the VQ, I just don’t recognize much of the structure underlying the Thoth or, more generally, the Golden Dawn derived decks.
 

gregory

The deck itself is beautiful but the author itself I find unsavory.
This is sad. I assume you don't listen to the music of Beethoven, given that he horribly abused his nephew ? For just one example. We can surely separate a person from their work. And what of Frieda Harris - what did she ever do to offend ? It's HER artwork, after all - Crowley himself did not paint a deck (he did some VERY bad drawings...) - so any Crowley deck will have been done by another artist.

ANY "Thoth" tradition deck will be imbued with Crowley's work - the point of them is that they follow his traditions. So if you feel that way - you have to avoid ALL OF THEM.

But there is always Liber T, if you remain both determined and picky. Or the Rosetta. VQ isn't it.
 

DesertDream

This is sad. I assume you don't listen to the music of Beethoven, given that he horribly abused his nephew ? For just one example. We can surely separate a person from their work. And what of Frieda Harris - what did she ever do to offend ? It's HER artwork, after all - Crowley himself did not paint a deck (he did some VERY bad drawings...) - so any Crowley deck will have been done by another artist.

ANY "Thoth" tradition deck will be imbued with Crowley's work - the point of them is that they follow his traditions. So if you feel that way - you have to avoid ALL OF THEM.

But there is always Liber T, if you remain both determined and picky. Or the Rosetta. VQ isn't it.

I never said AC was the artist? I said i like the art by FH but not the author himself. So i think you misunderstood my post. And no I dont listen to Beethoven much intentionally. I dont deny AC is brilliant but in no way does that mean i have to like a person. We all have our opinions. On avoiding the deck, i didnt want VQ to go to waste and not be read properly. Its that or give it away and id rather try first. The artwork of VQ resembles no other system but Thoth. Just like a Rider clone i dont think a deck has to match perfectly for it to be read in that format. So i cant really go about it any other way.
 

DesertDream

Even though the VQ may graphically resemble the Thoth to a degree, there is much more to be considered in determining if it's truly a Thoth derivative. As Freddie has said, the Thoth is based on the Golden Dawn system, which includes titles, decans, colour scales, Hebrew letters, and further attributions. Crowley did adhere to that system in many ways although he also took certain liberties, as did Waite. Since their days, a number of decks have been created as attempts to incorporate the Golden Dawn outlines more thoroughly.

In what little I have seen of the VQ, I just don’t recognize much of the structure underlying the Thoth or, more generally, the Golden Dawn derived decks.

Its not done by LH hand no but Rider clones are rider clones even if they arnt done by PCS. And a rider clone is still read in a rider format. Since there is no other tradition to read it from there is not much else to turn to. Its like you cant turn to a leonormand to understand a rider and i cant turn to rider for the VQ. its system is thoth and its a clone im assuming like all rider clones but with a theme that is non relevant to the deck. I mean i had many rider clones that read like a rider but looked far off from the deck and im assuming VQ can too.
 

Michael Sternbach

Its not done by LH hand no but Rider clones are rider clones even if they arnt done by PCS. And a rider clone is still read in a rider format. Since there is no other tradition to read it from there is not much else to turn to. Its like you cant turn to a leonormand to understand a rider and i cant turn to rider for the VQ. its system is thoth and its a clone im assuming like all rider clones but with a theme that is non relevant to the deck. I mean i had many rider clones that read like a rider but looked far off from the deck and im assuming VQ can too.

It's unlikely that we will come to agree about Crowley and his master piece. I still can't see the VQ as a "Thoth deck", but I, for one, am willing to drop that question. You want to read with it Thoth style, and you are inquiring into how to do that. Alright.

Now the Thoth is based strongly on astrology. More specifically, the astrology of the decans. I do include that information in my readings to a certain degree, although there are Thoth readers who don't pay much attention to it. Does whatever literature you have on the VQ support astrological attributions?

Others emphasize the kabbalistic side in their practical work with the Thoth. Again, what can be learned from the VQ and its literature regarding this?

Further, are the divinatory meanings of the VQ cards as given in the LWB and perhaps other sources similar to those of the Thoth cards?
 

Richard

I never said AC was the artist? I said i like the art by FH but not the author himself. So i think you misunderstood my post. And no I dont listen to Beethoven much intentionally. I dont deny AC is brilliant but in no way does that mean i have to like a person. We all have our opinions. On avoiding the deck, i didnt want VQ to go to waste and not be read properly. Its that or give it away and id rather try first. The artwork of VQ resembles no other system but Thoth. Just like a Rider clone i dont think a deck has to match perfectly for it to be read in that format. So i cant really go about it any other way.

DD, why in the world do you keep insisting that you never said that AC was the artist of the Thoth deck? No one has ever suggested that you thought otherwise.

If you want to read VQ like the Thoth, then read it like the Thoth. Apparently you are asking for help in this endeavor. However, this would entail studying the Thoth, which you don't want to do because you don't like AC.

Would you please state clearly what you want us to do with regard to your reading the VQ? If I suggest studying Eshelman's Liber T, I get a strong feeling that this will not be acceptable.

What the Sam Hill is going on in this confusing thread? Everything keeps going around in circles. I give up. If others enjoy playing this game, so be it. I'm out of it, unless it acquires some sort of meaningful direction.
 

gregory

Quite. I pointed out that the artwork was Frieda's merely to show that avoiding one "Thoth" deck and running with another would be just as CROWLEY, and if you are prepared to run with another based on his teachings, why not the Thoth itself, as it was no more CREATED by him than any other allegedly Thoth deck.

But OK - why not get your VQ (which ISN'T Thoth) and buy Duquette's book about understanding the Thoth to use with it... I can't imagine how that would work, but give it a shot, by all means.

Or make up your mind either to grit your teeth and use the Thoth its very own self, or to give up on the whole endeavour, as it isn't going to achieve your stated aim which you gave as:
I like the system of his tarot and would like to know more about reading it and how it differs from a Rider.
If you want to know more about reading it - it is the ONLY deck that will tell you. It is the ONLY Thoth deck there is. Liber T comes closest, but other than that... Surely, though, if Crowley's personality and actions are what put you off his deck, they have to put you off any deck allegedly based on them. You really cannot have it both ways,. His system is his and his alone.