Vision Quest - Thoth based deck

dancing_moon

Book of Thoth

The main challenge I personally see with the VQ is that it doesn't have any of the Thoth symbolism, i.e. no allusions to Kabbalah, astrology, etc., and instead it's packed full with Native symbolism: animals, Medicine Wheels, sacred objects. It would be a shame to ignore all those. :)
 

gregory

Book of Thoth or the deck ?

BoT - easy: Here

The deck: if you google you can see a lot:

There ARE sites that show the whole deck, but we aren't allowed to link them here, as they are in breach of copyright,

But if you look at this site, you can see that it certainly doesn't for one moment suggest that it's Thothy.

http://www.learntarot.com/vqdesc.htm

For this project of yours, whatever you feel about whatever else - this really is NOT the right deck to use !
 

ravenest

I am still no clearer on why a deck that has no kabbalah astrology or decanic attribution or Thelemic philosophy or doesnt show symbolic representation of a magical degree system, only has a LWB and is full of visual native american symbolism is a 'Thoth-style' deck .

Perhaps Closrapexa, when he recovers from his physical pain, can explain that to me ?
 

earthair

ETA I just looked at the card images and the reviews on this site, and I have no idea why it even says it is "Thoth-inspired". I shall have to get it out tomorrow and take a closer look.

I think it's because of this http://www.tarotpassages.com/vq3.jpg
The minors of VQ do look very similar to Thoth, minus the astrology, but surely that's a good thing as far as Desertdream is concerned, because that would dilute the connection to AC? :thumbsup:
 

Zephyros

Perhaps Closrapexa, when he recovers from his physical pain, can explain that to me ?

I have no idea, that's why I asked about the LWB, whether it could shed some light on the subject. I don't see anything particularly "Thothy" in it, but you know, whatever. I don't really care. However, my question was how it would be possible to go about studying a Thoth deck (which is obviously open for debate) while divorcing the study from Crowley himself. Now that's something that can't be done.

But I think that goes to a common misconception about the Thoth. Waite designed his deck to be rather enigmatic, almost neutral. The agenda is there, but it is deliberately obscured both because of its scenic nature as well as lack of documentation. It is practically made to be cloned.

Not so the Thoth, who's philosophy and reason for existing are ingrained in every aspect of it. Take those things away and you're left with nothing, really.

But in general I agree with someone here who said that what the OP probably needs most is a grounding in GD structure, simply because that's the method through which the Thoth conveys its ideas, its language. I'll grant that the deck in question has none of that either, but Book T is the best answer I've got, even if it isn't perfect.
 

Richard

Whatever "Thoth inspired" means, it is misleading without further explication. From the reviews I can detect nothing remotely Thoth-like about the VQ except perhaps the fact that Justice is 8 and Strength 11, but that is simply the traditional numbering of these cards and is in no way unique to the Thoth. Even the RWS has far more similarity to the Thoth than the VQ.

If you like the deck, go ahead and use it any way you wish, but it is absolutely not an appropriate deck for studying the Thoth. If you have such a distaste for AC that you cannot use the deck which he conceived but was executed by Frieda Harris, not AC, I don't understand why you do not also have a distaste for his Tarot system, which is a Thelemic refinement of that of the Golden Dawn. For a truly Thoth-based deck, you might check out the Liber T.
 

Astraea

Aeclectic Tarot characterizes the VQ as a Crowley Thoth deck in the deck description here (scroll down to the More About These Cards section): http://aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/vision-quest/. There are loose thematic similarities between some of the keywords and illustrations of the VQ and the Thoth deck, but that's about it. The VQ has none of the symbolic content or context of the Thoth deck.

I have the VQ and it's a nice deck, but I don't think it needs to be approached with any kind of formal system - the illustrations speak for themselves. This is not the case with the Thoth deck, whose every card is imbued with esoteric meaning on many levels, linked and aligned to form a cohesive whole.

As others here have said, to study the Thoth system, there's no conceivable way to avoid Crowley. Secondary books about the Thoth deck invariably refer the reader to The Book of Thoth, for Crowley is its primary source and fountainhead. Whatever his flaws might have been, Crowley was a brilliant, insightful and extraordinarily learned man whose writings are both broad and deep.
 

Michael Sternbach

I ment an internet link? I just want to compare the lwb before purchasing a book if possible. I dont like his actions, no. But card interpritations i wouldnt mind looking into. There is some people whos work i enjoy but not their actions. And id rather stick with VQ.

:confused: So why not go for the original Thoth deck after all, at least additionally to the VQ?

The only ACCURATE online resource would be the Book of Thoth. Which is actually BY Crowley, so I guess you won't find it acceptable.

However, the BoT doesn't explicate the divinatory meanings of the Minor Arcana (although, arguably, they may be implicated in the text). The only "authorized" source for them is not even by Crowley himself, although he was the first to publish it, and mentions it in the introduction to the BoT. It's the famous Book T. Both DuQuette and Smulkin took the divinatory meanings right out of the Book T - just like Crowley did as far as the Major Arcana. It is in fact the outline for all Golden Dawn based Tarot.

http://the-equinox.org/vol1/no8/eqi08016.html

The divinatory meanings of the Minor Arcana given adhere quite closely to the decanic images.
 

gregory

Aeclectic Tarot characterizes the VQ as a Crowley Thoth deck in the deck description here (scroll down to the More About These Cards section): http://aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/vision-quest/.
I know. And I can't see why, really. I know the review on Passages says t is - but...

There are loose thematic similarities between some of the keywords and illustrations of the VQ and the Thoth deck, but that's about it. The VQ has none of the symbolic content or context of the Thoth deck.
Exactly.

I have the VQ and it's a nice deck, but I don't think it needs to be approached with any kind of formal system - the illustrations speak for themselves. This is not the case with the Thoth deck, whose every card is imbued with esoteric meaning on many levels, linked and aligned to form a cohesive whole.

As others here have said, to study the Thoth system, there's no conceivable way to avoid Crowley. Secondary books about the Thoth deck invariably refer the reader to The Book of Thoth, for Crowley is its primary source and fountainhead. Whatever his flaws might have been, Crowley was a brilliant, insightful and extraordinarily learned man whose writings are both broad and deep.
As several people have been saying throughout this thread. Study the VQ in its own right, but don't think for one moment that you will be getting anything about Thoth from that study.

I really MUST go and get it out.....

@ Michael - fair point; I got a lot from the minors section, but it isn't that specific, I agree.
 

gregory

The booklet with the deck says NOTHING about Thoth AT ALL. It says it is Native American and does not claim to teach the Red Way. As far as I can see they have basically just used some on Crowley's keywords. Not exactly how to be a Thoth deck.