Vision Quest - Thoth based deck

HOLMES

yes

I would agree with Gregory , that the vision quest despite having some thoth keywords in there is not a thoth based deck. I have the deck and reading it , I just get a native American vibe.

if you look at another deck the ancient eyptian tarot by Bartlett in the book it has thoth keywords, but just can't see any thoth symbolism in it.

perhaps the author used the toth keywords as inspiration as I suspect Bartlett did,, but he didn't use the toth imagery as the basis.
and for a deck to be a thoth deck in my humble opnion has to use quite a bit of the symbology, which would be kind of hard due to all the symbols in the deck itself.
 

smw

It looks from what I can see online that some Thoth format has been used initially and then adapted for the Native American theme/ spirituality of the deck. Perhaps this has just been acknowledged, being respectful (or necessary?) rather than claiming a Thoth heritage as such.

Possibly the whole Thoth thing is a bit of a red herring really....
 

gregory

It looks from what I can see online that some Thoth format has been used initially and then adapted for the Native American theme/ spirituality of the deck. Perhaps this has just been acknowledged, being respectful (or necessary?) rather than claiming a Thoth heritage as such.

Possibly the whole Thoth thing is a bit of a red herring really....
I'm sure that's the case. The creators don't MENTION Thoth anywhere I can see. No blame to them; I just can't see why anyone else has referred to it that way.
 

DesertDream

I have a renisance themed rider although its still a rider i dont know why a theme would overwrite the original deck tradition? And if not Thoth what other tradition can I apply it to? Golden dawn? There is too many cards that take tradition from Thoth and wouldnt know where to look elsewhere.
 

Emily

I love the artwork of the original Thoth. However I refuse to purchase a copy because Ive read way too many unsavory things about A.C. I dont intented to offend anyone here, but he is not my bag of chips. I like the system of his tarot and would like to know more about reading it and how it differs from a Rider.

Apart from some keywords and just a handful of the cards, I can't see why the Vision Quest has been labelled a Thoth clone. I always thought it was a stand-alone, non-traditional Native American deck, so many of the Majors have been renamed.

If you want to learn the Thoth system then you need a closer clone deck than the Vision Quest. The clone decks include the Liber T, the Rosetta and the Via - there are others too. You don't have to use the Book of Thoth, other authors have given their take on Thoth interpretations.
 

DesertDream

I think it's because of this http://www.tarotpassages.com/vq3.jpg
The minors of VQ do look very similar to Thoth, minus the astrology, but surely that's a good thing as far as Desertdream is concerned, because that would dilute the connection to AC? :thumbsup:

Im sure if the basic associations can be made to the cards i would not need symbols to be there to remember them if i studied the deck. But i dont think the lack of astrology in a deck can dilute a deck just without symbols because those can be memorized and applied. And astrological associations are in most decks i dont see how it can dilute connection to AC originally?
 

Zephyros

I have a renisance themed rider although its still a rider i dont know why a theme would overwrite the original deck tradition? And if not Thoth what other tradition can I apply it to? Golden dawn? There is too many cards that take tradition from Thoth and wouldnt know where to look elsewhere.

But the two traditions are not the same, and the same rules that apply to one don't apply to the other. In the case of the RWS you're perfectly correct, a theme is a mere overlay, it doesn't affect the essence of the deck. This is actually why I dislike RWS clones because they all look the same.

But the same can't be said about the Thoth which has different characteristics and method. Why this is so can be debated but it is, in fact, so. It's just the way it is.

What tradition should you use with the VQ? Honestly I don't think it matters, do whatever you feel comfortable doing. Even if you were to read it like an RWS it would still have variations on the cards, especially if you read straight from the images.
 

DesertDream

Apart from some keywords and just a handful of the cards, I can't see why the Vision Quest has been labelled a Thoth clone. I always thought it was a stand-alone, non-traditional Native American deck, so many of the Majors have been renamed.

If you want to learn the Thoth system then you need a closer clone deck than the Vision Quest. The clone decks include the Liber T, the Rosetta and the Via - there are others too. You don't have to use the Book of Thoth, other authors have given their take on Thoth interpretations.

What other tradition can VQ be applied too?
 

DesertDream

But the two traditions are not the same, and the same rules that apply to one don't apply to the other. In the case of the RWS you're perfectly correct, a theme is a mere overlay, it doesn't affect the essence of the deck. This is actually why I dislike RWS clones because they all look the same.

But the same can't be said about the Thoth which has different characteristics and method. Why this is so can be debated but it is, in fact, so. It's just the way it is.

What tradition should you use with the VQ? Honestly I don't think it matters, do whatever you feel comfortable doing. Even if you were to read it like an RWS it would still have variations on the cards, especially if you read straight from the images.

So why would a theme not affect a rws as much as a thoth? Can i look to golden dawn to interprit the cards?
I think pearls of wisdom is mainly rider but it is not really an overlay, its redone alot. Like its own interp of a rider. I do think it matters what tradition i use because it certainly does not go hand in hand with rider. Why would i not just apply thoth interpritations to a image similar to thoth?
 

Richard

The Thoth keywords for the pips are adapted from those given for the astrological decans in the Golden Dawn's Book T. They also (among other things) influenced the design of the RWS pips and thus, indirectly, all so-called RWS clones.

Attached is a scan of the table in Book T giving the keywords (which I prefer to think of as titles for the pips/decans rather than keywords).
 

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