A Pool Of Cards

Rosanne

For some years I have been placing images attached to Historical Tarot under headings, and except for what I call abberrations like the Mitelli (Greek Legend), the Sola Busca (Roman Soldiers and the like) I have 47 Cards in 6 Groups.
Due to several articles in wonderful sites of late, I thought I would ask if I need a further file heading.
Roman Gods and Goddesses. 12 Cards/6 pairs
Juno - Marriage Peacock
Jupiter- Eagle Sky and Air
Venus- Beauty Dove
Apollo- Poetry Music Sun Tripod
Diana -Hunting+ Dog Moon
Mars - War +Wolf
Minerva - Wisdom + Owl
Vulcan- Blacksmith Pileus (Black cap)
Ceres- Basket Harvest Nature
Mercury- Messenger Winged (shoes, hat, tortoise)
Vesta- Hearth Lamp
Neptune - Sea, Trident Dolphin Serpent

Planets 7
Sun, Mercury, Venus, Moon, Mars, Saturn and Jupiter

Zodiac 12
Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces

Elements 4
Air, Fire, Water, Earth

Virtues 7
Faith, Hope, Charity (theological) Prudence, Temperance, Justice, Strength/Force (Cardinal)

Christian Concepts of Fame and Fortune 5 Cards
Time, Fortune, Vanitas , Judgement, Fame
Time: We simultaneously grasp the past in memory, the present by attention, and the future by expectation.(Saint Augustine)
Fortune: Christianity transformed Fortune’s character. The ancient Romans Fortuna had been fickle, that is, open to appeal, but the Christian concept made her unyielding to any thing other than Virtue, struggling against capricious Fortuna. So no matter what happened as long as you were Virtuous you could withstand Fortuna.
Vanitas: meaninglessness of earthly life and the transient nature of all earthly goods and pursuits.
Judgment: .
From Nicene Creed: “We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.”

…When time is swept away by death the game ends and no one has an advantage. No one is King or Knight or Judge or Lord: everyone is equal in the bag of the Earth.
Meister Ingold 1423(Speaking of the game of Chess)
Fame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dresden_Fama_(2005).jpg
Christianity in the sense of ‘Good Tidings’ - (Rumour of Good things to come)

It seems to me that from this pool of cards came Tarot. (It looks somewhat like a Minchiate deck) Some cards that are called something else appeared changed. In the PMB Visconti we have Star, Moon, Sun, that in the Tdm cards -look like the Zodiac signs of Aquarius,Cancer and Gemini. In early decks Strength looks like a combination of Leo and Virgo.(Cary Yale)
Some Roman Gods and Goddesses are names of Planets. For example Jupiter, Venus, Mars, Mercury.
In some decks the Elements seem to have another name- like The Ship for Water and The Tower for Fire. Sometimes the Fool looks like Air. The World card definitly depicts Earth.
So suit cards of 56 usual for playing cards except for the queens.
47 Cards that could be used for the 22.
I think there is no reason to think there is a logical sequence.
I had considered the Constellations- Like Orion, but I could not find others that were in the so called "usual" groupings.
From these groups I can make up the Noblet Tdm.
It would seem that this idea of a pool of cards, drawn from, in whatever your regional fancy was, is quite a logical idea. Certainly save on Packaging Lol.I am not sure how for printing this would be arranged. Unless the doubling up of images, was made single- Like the Gods that had names of Planets removed or vice versa. Saturn as Death- one or other removed?? Things like that.
Any other thoughts???
~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Here is an image of Vanitas (futility) in English called 'In A Blink of an Eye'
So in my file, the Death card comes under Christian concepts one of 5 cards along with
Time Fortune, Fame, Judgement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In_ictu_oculi.jpg

(I think it would be a great Tarot card!)

~Rosanne
 

conurelover

That would make a great Tarot card. :)
 

Rosanne

Well where did I put the 'Hanged Man'?
It is thought maybe in a zodiacal sense it should be Cygnus The Swan (which is the Northern hemisphere's Crux and looks therefore like a cross) , or Bootes the herdsman.
It seems as if it has always been at number 12. It is now next to Strength so as a pick of a group of cards it belongs with the Christian concepts. I cannot see it as part of Fame and Fortune except as worldly punishment(unless hanging around in Purgatory lol)- so not there. So I have stuck it in Virtues, opposed to Strength as 'Moral weakness'. The Devil is in Virtues also, as Intemperance, next to Temperance. That make the Chariot as opposed to Justice and not a God or a planet.
I keep coming back to Tarot as a game of several components. All those groups I previously mentioned have clear boundaries. Astrological considerations are not the same as Christian concepts, nor Gods and Goddesses.
Maybe they just took these images and shuffled.
I think it as Bob O'Neill(Tarot Symbolism) said there as this idea of arbtrarily chosen images and no real sequence, and the meaning we now find, was assumed later. Not that this as his thoughts on Tarot, but the idea could be true.
~Rosanne
 

DoctorArcanus

Hello Rosanne,
when you write that the Tarot trump form “no real sequence, and the meaning we now find, was assumed later” I understand that you are denying the original meaningfulness of the trumps as a cycle. My point of view is that human action always is meaningful. In particular, a successful artifact such as tarot is much likely to be meaningful.

But, philosophy apart, what makes this “arbitrary” approach hard is the fact that many aspects of Tarot find close parallels in ancient works of arts. These points have been proposed by Sir Michael Dummett in 1985 and have been presented on the internet many times by Michael J Hurst:
http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.it/2007/11/iconography-and-order-of-cards.html
The anonymous Italian author of the XVI century "Discorso perché fosse trovato il giuoco et particolarmente quello del Tarocco" also provides a similar interpretation.


The first six trumps belong to the “ranks of man” typology.
These cards represent the order or hierarchy of human society. From the lowest (Fool) to the highest (Pope). The order is not random and the subjects are not chosen at random. In XV century Europe, the Fool cannot be above the Emperor, and the Emperor cannot be above the Pope.

Trumps VI-XIII form a psychomachia, the inner struggle that every man lives when his virtues and vices, limits and desires come into conflict, when he has to face the capricious behaviour of Fortune. As you have nicely summarized, “the Christian concept made [Fortune] unyielding to any thing other than Virtue, struggling against capricious Fortuna. So no matter what happened as long as you were Virtuous you could withstand Fortuna”. This is exactly what we see in the central part of the tarot trumps sequence (the most complex of the three).

The last seven trumps represent the end of times, what happens to the soul after Death (XIII). An eschatological narrative. Many ancient depictions of such narratives exist, most of them being based on the Book of Revelation, culminating in the resurrection of the dead (trump XX) and access of the blessed to a new world (trump XXI).

Some cards that are called something else appeared changed. In the PMB Visconti we have Star, Moon, Sun, that in the Tdm cards -look like the Zodiac signs of Aquarius,Cancer and Gemini.

The upper part of the TdM XVII-XIX cards represent the Star, the Moon and the Sun. Also, in the lower part of the cards, there is a title labelling them as the Star, the Moon and the Sun. The primary meaning of the cards is unchanged from the Bembo cards to the TdM. What changes is the secondary meaning. But the secondary meaning can be addressed only when the primary meaning is understood. I think it would be a good policy to keep these two levels (primary / secondary) separated. If you don't mix them, you will be able to also include the Mitelli deck in your analysis, since it only superficially diverges from other ancient tarot decks. On the contrary, as you have rightly noticed, the Sola Busca deck has a completely different trump sequence and cannot share the same explanation as other tarot decks.
 

Bernice

.........................
Maybe they just took these images and shuffled.
I think it as Bob O'Neill(Tarot Symbolism) said there as this idea of arbtrarily chosen images and no real sequence, and the meaning we now find, was assumed later. Not that this as his thoughts on Tarot, but the idea could be true.
~Rosanne
This reminds me of the Lenormand cards which of course were at much later time in history.
Their 'order' as we know it, is arbitrary because the sequence (if there was one) was not recalled/recorded, only the images.

The tarot trump card sequence, along with their number, have been subject to 'Time', 'place', and 'culture' over several hundred years, frequently diverging from the original. Therefore even the 'meanings' (including reasons for game/gambling scores) have undergone various changes, depending on who made the interpretations and where & when they were.

If we knew why Bianca choose those particular images we might be throughly disallusioned about the trumps cards altogether, she was after all a very young lady brought up with a miind-set for that time & place plus (possibly) her own ideas/opinions. So maybe the idea of an arbitrary order could indeed be true.... :)

Regarding the 'meanings': Humanity has the expectation that there be a 'reason' for everything - one that makes sense to them. If one can't be percieved we invariably set about creating one..:)

Bee
 

DoctorArcanus

Regarding the 'meanings': Humanity has the expectation that there be a 'reason' for everything - one that makes sense to them. If one can't be percieved we invariably set about creating one..:)

How true! Regarding the perception of meaning, I would also add that there's none so blind as those that will not see... :)
 

Rosanne

Hi Bernice and Doctor Arcanus!

Bee You are right about meaning and the search for it. Tarot is not arbitary in that way.
Unfortunately in Tarot History everyone cannot be right.
Your answer Doctor Arcanus as an exactment, (blind as I might be) does not fit the bill for me.
Tell me why three cards have a secondary meaning, yet originally the cards were not titled?
Are other history forums, in the constant search for meaning -just ego's massaging themselves, or tickling their toes?
Why are people who believe (Like I do) that Tarot is a 3x7+1 order, consider (only consider) that maybe the States of Man are 7 Planets. We are unable to change planet order, just how we perceive them. Or that they are Pairs of Gods? If they are States of Man, why are some old cards Juno? There is a variation in printed matter, as there is a slighter variation in handpainted cards. Not all the cards, have remained in their now position in the sequence. So my belief in 7 sets of 3 gets a little messy around the edges. I am fairly set in cards having a set of Christian concepts- but not all. I do understand that the cards came from a varied mindset- after all all around them were varied symbols.
Just look at Malatesta's temple to see that.
I still cannot see after all these years complete agreement on Tarot; or in other words, no single class of explanation will suffice. Nor has arisen a person with the total answer, no matter their standing in the History of Tarot circles. Just because one person constantly says the same thing- makes that the answer.
I appreciate your views however.
~Rosanne
 

Bernice

HI Rosanne & DoctorArcanus :)

A Pool of Cards yes, the thread title is very apt especially as there were only 21 Trumps (Fool = "the excuse"), and that they were also unnumbered. I have assumed that the earliest numbering (sequence) probably reflected the general ideas of that time & locality (in relation to gaming scores?) and might have been what was originally intended. But one section of societys' opinions might not have been that of another, nor come to think of it, the use of the cards. Did a philospher number their order, or a gambler? Would a staunch churchman view the Pope image in a similar way to a tavern keeper?

Rosanne; "Maybe they just took these images and shuffled." Maybe they did! And as you speculate, the meanings/sequence developed later on. Very feasible.


More thoughts come to mind....


Bee
 

Debra

Meanings that are "ragged around the edges" is appropriate for games and play. If everything is sewn up tight, where's the fun in that? Overlapping, contradictory, and evocative meanings make the cards rich.

The messages are delivered visually. Constructing a convincing verbal narrative story-line (why one card should trump another) is probably part of what the game involved.

Constructing such a narrative story-line today, might be seen as continuing the old discussion. Only the table is closed to new players, there's nothing at stake. And there's an apparent infinity of googled images to back up one's version.

Leaving aside the fortune-telling--which is also construction of a narrative story-line--the game becomes "storytelling with historical Footnotes and Documentation."

Cards are cards rather than books or a single drawing because flexibility is important. The spirit of this game is dealing with changes of fortune. The predictive use of cards for fortune-telling may have been added on later (ie, "officially" documented). However, looking for cycles and anticipating the future is a central purpose of the cards themselves.