Reversible tarot

WillieHewes

Ooooh, I can feel it bubbling...

Have you seen this page: http://www.pagat.com/ipcs/history.html
? Apart from it being really interesting, it actually inspired me to try a second deck.

What I'm thinking is... *tries to think of easy way to explain this* You know how the court cards on normal playing cards have two heads? They're like semi-closeups on one half of the card, point-mirrored onto the other half. (Wow! that was a complex explaination!) Anyway, I thought this could be done to great effect with tarot cards, also and expecially the minors. The two halves would not be exactly the same though, just a kind of reflextion of each other, so the card could show two opposed (pos and neg) aspects of the card at the same time, on the two halves of the card. The 'reversed' meaning of the card would not have to be looked up in a book or remembered seperately, because it's right there on the card.

OK, I hope that's vaguely comprehensible. I'd like to hear opinions on this: ie, do you think it's a good idea? have I lost the plot completely? Is this possible?

To return to the page linked to above, if you scroll about two thirds down, to the section "Artists transform the pack" you can see an image of the seven of hearts by Adolfo Matarelli, which I really really like. I'd like to attempt something similar, but I'm torn: should I stick with the spanish suit symbols that are usually associated with tarot, or can I risk the jump to the more abstract french symbols? (hearts, clubs, spades, diamonds)

That reminds me: what's the usual association between tarot and playing card suits again? Cups are hearts, I believe, but that's the only one I remember...

So, generally, I need some help. In fact, if there's anyone out there who likes this idea, would you be willing to help me figure out appropriate dual meanings for all the cards (minors especially)? I've had a go, but it's not easy, and some feedback/input would help a lot, I think.

Thanks for listening to me ramble, I'll... be going now.

Willie
-The First Victim
 

blue_fusion

great idea. i'd like to see your approach to this second deck of yours. :)
 

Major Tom

According to Playing Cards by Roger Tilley - 'reversable' cards as you describe were the first 'modern' improvement on the way to the regular playing cards we have today.

Suit correspondeces from the French/Italian/Spanish tradition to the best of my memory:

hearts= cups
diamonds = pentacles
clubs = wands
spades = swords

Also from Roger Tilley: from the German tradition:

hearts = cups
bells = pentacles
acorns = swords
(oak) leaves = wands

Of course then there were the decks that had up to 12 suits!

I think this can work - as long as you stick to the traditions that brought it about.

BTW - the second 'modern development' was the addition of an abrieviated symbol of the card in the upper left corner - when reversed too! This innovation occured so you 'could keep your cards close to your chest' while playing poker. })

If you'd like to explore this let me know. :)
 

temperlyne

I really love the idea of split cards! It reveales so lovely the duality of life. I would love to follow you're creating progress!

good luck,
 

WillieHewes

Huh, I just found out this has already been done. And pretty well, too. Have a look: http://www.kirwanesque.com/deck/deck.htm

It's really very different (visually) from what I had in mind, but still... Bit of a bummer. Thought I had something new there... Oh well. I was thinking of using corner indices actually, and been puzzeling on what abbreviations to use for the court cards.
(King and Knight both beginning with K...) Using prince and princess of course doesn't help either, and Mother Father Son Daughter isn't really the vibe I'm looking for.

I'm thinking of using King Queen Jack and something. Maiden, perhaps. Kirwan (see above) has a V, although I don't know what it stands for. Oh! Virgin, probably. Yeah, that makes sense, although one of his V's is a 'mistress' and one a 'temptress'. I'm thinking out loud again, aren't I?

Sticking to tradition, Tom, yes. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that but I think I want the cards to have a very 'playing card' sort of feel. If I'm really going to try a transformation deck I'm going to have a hard time, but I think I can do it... Maybe...

I should try a few scetches. Yeah, I'll do that, and then get back to you.

Thanks!
 

Major Tom

It still is a good idea - even if someone else has done it. Yours could be better. I thought no one had done a deck like mine before until I saw the Mountain Dream tarot. :)

Jack would do for Knight - keeping to the playing card tradition.

Your 4th court could be page, princess or maiden. :)

To stick with a more tarot tradition your reversed meanings are different to upright meanings. To pull this off your reversals illustrate a transformation of the upright position - much like the deck in the link, rather than the playing cards tradition of mirror image reversals. Does this make sense?

Then some decks have used keywords....
 

WillieHewes

OK, I got some: http://tarot.lunaticsworld.com/Flip/Reverse.html

And you can actually reverse them, as well! (mouseover)

They're just pencil scetches, but it shows more or less what I'm thinking of. I've also tried transformation, but it's bloody hard, especially if you also want to put meaning into the image. So I've gone for meaning instead, and just put the suit symbols in there, arranged as in playing cards. There is a bit of transformation, in Diamonds ten one of the diamonds is like the clip to the lady's ermine mantle. I kind of like that, but doing it for all symbols on the card is just too hard. (The lady stands for 'decadence' by the way, could you tell? The house on the other half is 'plenty' or 'riches'.)

I really don't like decks that have keywords printed on the cards, as I feel they limit your interpretations too much. (I've read a book once which, although it shared my opinion in this, recommended the Toth tarot. Their solution was to put post-it notes over the keywords!) But I have of course been playing with keywords to determine what meanings (and hence, what pictures) the cards should have.

The six scetches I have are very RWS, I think you can recognise the 8 9 and 10 or swords in the spades. I think I want to move even further away from that though, and use a more systematic set of meanings. ('Heartbreak' for instance should be a cups card, not 3 of swords.) I could use some help with this though, I'm not used to working with pip cards, I've always worked from the picture.

Well, bravely I plod on, please tell me what you think or if you've any tips or ideas. Thanks. :)

Oh, and, although I've not yet discarded the idea of having King Queen Jack and Maiden/Princess as court cards, I have also discovered that in a deep, grey of the past the court cards used to be King Queen Cavalier Page. Although not everyone will know the word Cavalier perhaps, it is a possible solution. So, still working on that.

Thanks for listening to me babble!

Willie - onMouseOver(squeek)
 

WillieHewes

One more thing: I want to use corner indications on these cards, so a number and suit symbol in the top right corners. Does anyone have any idea about a simple symbol that could be used in the corner of the trumps?

Cuz I don't. I'd like it to be vaguely in the style of playing card symbols, but it's not easy to think of a fifth. Hearts, Diamonds, Spades, Clubs and... what? Circles? Stars?

Really really good ideas will be rewarded with a free Simple Tarot deck. :p
 

marmalade

hey, i love the idea of a reversible deck, and the sketches you've done so far look really good!!

as for an idea for a 5th symbol to use for the trumps, hmmm... that's a bit tough. there are some decks that have 5 suits (playing cards i think), and the 5th one is stars, or circles, but i think in terms of a suit for the major arcana, maybe some sort of synthesis of the other 4? i don't know if this makes any sense, or if it's even possible/how it would look, but it might be interesting as the major arcana cards contain the elements of the other suits.

i'll have a ponder and i'll let you know if i can come up with anything else.
 

Major Tom

WillieHewes said:
The six scetches I have are very RWS, I think I want to move even further away from that though, and use a more systematic set of meanings. ('Heartbreak' for instance should be a cups card, not 3 of swords.) I could use some help with this though, I'm not used to working with pip cards, I've always worked from the picture.

I have also discovered that in a deep, grey of the past the court cards used to be King Queen Cavalier Page. it is a possible solution.

I like it. :) Very clever how you get the cards to flip. And your transformations work.

Don't worry about sticking with RWS meanings - it gives you the advantage of having an existing audience who can pick up your cards and use them. For an alternative solution you might look at cartomancy meanings - meanings from readings with playing cards...I'm sure there's a book.

Isn't a Cavalier a French Knight? })