Nicolas Bodet

kwaw

Topic: Bodet, Vandenborre and general Belgian pattern?

eugim said:
Please Monsieurs et Madmoiselles...
Return to the deck topic please ! // Could we ?

I wasn't aware we had left it.

kwaw ... even I am not agree with you.(I m not close but never to Qabbalah).

Not sure how that's relevant as I can't see where in the thread anyone has made any mention of Qabbalah?

I know that each of us has his own prior belief but here we are I think to search iconographic details...

-I mean this this a new a wonderful (full) thread...
So why don t we be close to the topic ? / I mean we are talking about Belgian family born from Vieville deck,so for me that is the central point all about.

I like to look at details too, for example of what relevance, if any, does the ace of hearts have? Does the popular (and banned in many places) game Ace of Hearts provide a trope from which we may draw an analogy? Or is it refering to 'plucking of the heart / rose' type figures of speech? Or to the juggler's promises to fulfill 'your heart's desire' being as worth as much, like the stock jobbers, as the paper it is printed on? Nothing but a house of cards to be blown over in the winds of fortune? Once he has what he wants of you, will we find it miraculously exchanged, as in the play quoted above, for a Knave of Clubs?

However, I also consider the social and cultural interests of the period in which the pattern appears, and of which it reflects, needs to be taken into account to provide a broad based but nonetheless delimited context in which 'iconographic details' are best understood.

The title of the thread is in reference to the Bodet, a marked characteristic of which along with other decks of the Belgian type is the fixed numerical placement of Le Fou at XXII.

In what other contexts may we see a beginning with a juggler and ending with folly and madness in the 18th century in which the Bodet and Vandenborre appear?

One comparison, as in the examples I have quoted and referenced above, is in the developement of satirical characterisations which had origins in the collapse of French, English and Dutch 'bubble' schemes and the boom in satirical and irreverent genre poems, plays (farces, sotties, pantomimes, et al) and cartoons that followed across Northern Europe post 1720 (often, as described above, re-working previous themes, many of which are reflected in the tarot, such as images of jugglers, folly and the ups and downs of fortune's wheel).

Reference to theatre of the time I consider to be very much in context, all the more so as the decks themselves allude to theatrical traditon by replacing the popesse with the miles gloriosa type character of the internationally successful comedia del'art (and specifically a character that achieved particular success in France).

Other socio-political events of the period that may possibly be reflected in the choice of the Spanish Captain is that of the Spanish Succession (c. 1714, not to far distant to the return from exile of the Comedia del' arte to Paris in 1716), and other events such as has been mentioned on another thread on the Belgian tarot pattern here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69458

Kwaw
 

eugim

Hello Kwaw:
1-I am somewhat a newcomer here but aware of your awesome posts.With regard to Qabbalah I mentioned it because before or later you drives there to sustain topics.Surely not here yet.
2-Sociopolitical context ? / Of course there were.
But the cards pre dated them,I mean theirs iconography.
On the other side if you want to see sociopolitical and religion context also Ihcoyc brought here a sustantial topc to give body to your point of view with regard to Belgian blood line decks.(Van den Borre and Bodet).
The replacement of some cards with a clear anti Pope intention.(Which I don t mind of it).
3-With regard to the Ace of Cup,well many too many point of view aside the iconography could exists.
4-On a cross deck comparison the Belgian family has an unique characteristics unlike others Marseilles patterns decks.
I mentioned XV card for an example.

Ça Ira my friend !


Eugim
 

kwaw

Hi Eugim

eugim said:
Hello Kwaw:
1-With regard to Qabbalah I mentioned it because before or later you drives there to sustain topics.Surely not here yet.

Nor reason for there ever to be; to say I bring it up sooner or later I believe is an incorrect perception of my position on the subject; but possibly that is a lack of self awareness on my own part, but here as commonly elsewhere I am responding to it being brought up by another.

2-Sociopolitical context ? / Of course there were.
But the cards pre dated them,I mean theirs iconography.

Spanish Captain as II? Bacvs as V? Explicit Fou numeration of XXII? Deck of cards on Jugglers Table with Ace of Hearts on top? These aspects of tarot iconography 'pre-date' the Belgian pattern of the 18th century as exemplified in the Bodet and/or Vandenborre?

On the other side if you want to see sociopolitical and religion context also Ihcoyc brought here a sustantial topc to give body to your point of view with regard to Belgian blood line decks.(Van den Borre and Bodet).
The replacement of some cards with a clear anti Pope intention.(Which I don t mind of it).

Erm...I've somehow never mentioned or recognised over many years of posting the potential presense of reformist polemics, satire and anti-papal sentiment, well... I thought I had, I must have failed to express or acknowledge potential presence of such in my over arching desire to drive every discussion to qabbalah.

3-With regard to the Ace of Cup,well many too many point of view aside the iconography could exists.

Presuming you mean the ace of hearts (an enlightening mistake for someone who claims to value looking and seeing over knowing), yes many points of view could exist, I have been seeking and quoting references of the time that did exist.

4-On a cross deck comparison the Belgian family has an unique characteristics unlike others Marseilles patterns decks.
I mentioned XV card for an example.

And I the numeration of Le Fou as XXII, the replacement of Popesse with the Spanish Captain and Pope with Bacvs.

Ça Ira my friend !

Ídem, mi amigo!
 

eugim

Well Kwaw...
Get down on it my amigo too...
I respect your posts,and appreciate them too much as you never know...
Even I m farthest form you,but you have "sustain and guts" and I respect that.

But stops fighting brother !

1-I m agree on a broad sense with you but I "feel" that the "nerve" of the thread is coming from another side my amicci...
2-Anti-Pope:Well that s a sign of Belgians decks and show to us the sociopolitical time as Brueghel done as I saw...
3-Qabbalah,forget it brother, I m so tired that people unrespected (Surely not you amigo) to "have a shower" ...
As one time one of my best friends Joel Fridman said (Having on mind Gershom Scholem) Qabbalah was and is a clumsy attempt to make Hebrews more "acceptable" to a Christian context,a neoplatonism attempt to it (Michael Psellos)
4-I will send to you bro an e mail...
Read it my english preferido...

Eugim ( From my mother line : Tippin and Cormack )

Eugim
 

kwaw

Going back to the topic...

kwaw said:
...The best of these caricatures is a large engraving
by Picart, which appears in the Dutch volume, with
explanations in French and Dutch, and which was
re-engraved with English descriptions and applications
in London. It is a general satire on the madness
which characterised the memorable year 1720.

Another Dutch engraver after the style of Picart and active in the 1720's was Matthew Pool, born at Amsterdam about the year 1670. "He was instructed in the art at Paris, and on his return to Hoolan engraved several plates after various masters, in a style resembling that of Bernard Picart. His engravings include "three burlesque representations of the Ceremonies adopted by the Flemish Painters at Rome."(Bryan)

This Bentveughel initiation ceremony "shows a group of men surrounding a plump figure of Bacchus straddling a barrel and supplying everyone with wine..."

"Their group affiliation (Schildersbent translates as “painter’s clique”) was based largely on the rites and rituals they held, including elaborate initiation ceremonies and feasts that all featured elements of Bacchic worship...
(Cartwright, p.140)

"The Bentvueghels (Dutch for "Birds of a Feather") were a society of mostly Dutch and Flemish artists active in Rome from about 1620 to 1720. They are also known as the Schildersbent ("painters' clique").

"The members, which included painters, etchers, sculptors and poets, all lived in different parts of the city (mostly the parishes of Santa Maria Popolo and San Lorenzo in Lucina in the north of the city) and came together for social and intellectual reasons. The group was well-known for its drunken, Bacchic initiation rituals (paid for by the initiate). These celebrations, sometimes lasting up to 24 hours, concluded with group marching to the church of Santa Costanza, known popularly at the time as the Temple of Bacchus. There they and made libations to Bacchus before the porphyry sarcophagus of Constantina (now in the Vatican Museums), which was considered to be his tomb because of its Bacchic motifs. A list of its members may still be seen in one of this church's side chapels. This practice was finally banned by Pope Clement XI in 1720.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentvueghels

In the replacement of the Pope for Bacvs in the Belgian tarot then, we may see perhaps a form of retaliation for Pope Clementine XI's banning of the ceremonies of this bacchanalian society of Dutch and Flemish artists in Rome...

BodetV.jpg


Kwaw

Dictionary of Painters and Engravers by Michael Bryan.

DISSOLUTE SELF-PORTRAITS IN SEVENTEENTH-CENTURY DUTCH AND FLEMISH ART by Ingrid A. Cartwright, Ph.D., 2007
 

eugim

Well Kwaw you done it "Big"...
-That s all about my caro amicci !
-Belgian context /Anti pope so BTW different from his "father" deck so Vieville...

-That s the "groove" brother....
-The point is why,where,who...?

-Congratulations !!! / LE PAPE as Baccus ???
You done it bro too,I mean too biggest...

Till the next...

Eugim
 

kwaw

Bacchus prepares the way for lust...

Perhaps as much pro a romantic or sympathetic view of the dissolute artist, possibly by one the Bentveughels own initiates, as an anti-papal statement?

The lucrative genre scenes of the Dutch artists of the Bentveughels of everyday life, of peasant scenes and of low life scenes of gamblers, charlatans, prostitutes that were criticised by the academics were popular with Italian aristocracy.

Baburen_Dirck_van_The_Procuress.jpg

Baburen: The Procuress

Karel_Dujardin_1657_A_Party_of_Char.jpg

Dujardin: A party of charlatans

The Bentveughels with their patron Bacchus and patroness Venus sought in dissolution both an inspiration for their creativity and their subject.

BodetV.jpg
BodetVI.jpg
VANDENB22.jpg


"Van Mander berated artists not just for excessive drinking, but for general dissolute conduct, noting unbridled, riotous and “gek” (crazy) behavior and bemoaning how poorly it reflected upon the profession giving it a “bad reputation.”

BodetXIIII.jpg


Van Mander was also concerned about artists squandering their money on so many sensual delights. He frequently equated artistic fame with wealth, and bemoaned what he saw as artist’s potential for fame pour out of their pockets and into a wineglass." (Cartwright, p.146)


Kwaw
 

kwaw

The Bacchus Deck : An initiates deck.

koninck.jpg


Bacchanalia by Koninck, 1654 depicting a party of the 'bentvueghels'.

Initiates of the Bentveughels!

"Stylistically, the Bamboccianti, or “Bent” artists, were generally known for their
small scenes of life depicting the city’s lower classes and for the cues they took from
Caravaggio’s realism. They were, however, even more famous for their ritualistic
drunken revelry.

"Their group affiliation (Schildersbent translates as “painter’s clique”) was
based largely on the rites and rituals they held, including elaborate initiation
ceremonies and feasts that all featured elements of Bacchic worship, but moreover,
bacchanalian excess. Every time a new member arrived from the North, the group
held indulgent, often multi-day initiations called “baptisms.” Images of the actual
induction ceremony (Figure 52) depict the newcomer crowned with ivy and stripped
down to a loincloth to resemble Bacchus. Quite often, the initiate is shown sitting
astride a wine barrel while other members gather around in drunken revelry. The new
members were given “Bent” nicknames like “Biervliech” (meaning “beer fly,”
Baburen), “Batavier” (van Hoogstraten) and “Satyr” (Poelenburgh). The ceremony
was officiated by a Bent “priest,” though the implied mocking of holy sacrament was
deemed so blasphemous by Roman society that it was condemned in 1669 and
eventually banned by papal decree in 1720.

The Elevation of 'Madness'

"Dutch artists did, in fact, have a reasonable explanation (some might say
excuse) for drinking. Moral perils aside, since classical times, alcohol—specifically
wine—had been attributed with the power to alight creativity. The idea derives from
classical sources, most importantly the writings of Horace (and later Ovid), who
promoted the idea in his Epistles that wine could induce a type of frenzy much like a
“divine madness” inspiring artistic creation.

VANDENB22.jpg


https://drum.umd.edu/dspace/bitstream/1903/7720/1/umi-umd-4997.pdf
 

kwaw

Many Masked Monsters

eugim said:
-For example they have an unusual XV card...
I mean with regard to the others Marseilles decks cousins.
His faces barely all around his body...

And? So what do you make of our face made devil? (Or is it a devil making faces?)

Bodet15.jpg
VDB15.jpg


The Bodet version of the Bacvs pattern is very similar to the Vieville; while retaining a similar form our Vandenborre however has become what Kaplan describes as 'a patchwork of eyes and faces.' A phrase that brings to mind the trope of the face maker or by its technical rhetorical term Prosopopoeia:

From Greek prosōpopoiiā : prosōpon, face, mask, dramatic character (pros-, pros- + ōpon, face, from ōps, ōp-, eye) + poiein, to make...

... the Greek rhetorical term for a trope consisting either of the personification of some non‐human being or idea, or of the representation of an imaginary, dead, or absent person as alive and capable of speech and hearing, as in an apostrophe.*



The devil follows death, the indwelling legions of his form speak in many voices...the voices of the dead...the posthumous...the disembodied...the passed...the past.

The cacaphony of their voices ignites his breath...

Kwaw

*Apostrophe: figure of speech in which an absent person, a personified inanimate being, or an abstraction is addressed as though present. The term is derived from a Greek word meaning “a turning away,” and this sense is maintained when a narrative or dramatic thread is broken in order to digress by speaking directly to someone not there...Columbia Encyclopedia.)

Thesaurus: prosopopeia, also prosopopoeia
A physical entity typifying an abstraction: embodiment, exteriorization, externalization, incarnation, manifestation, materialization, objectification, personalization, personification, substantiation, type. See substitute.
 

MaureenH

Great (though, kind of creepy) pictures. Some of the figures in the Koninkc look as though they're wearing masks, speaking of many faces. Were artists obligated to associate with the Bentveughels? Were they ostracized by the artistic community if they did not?

Interesting that the Vatican still maintains and displays the list of members in a side chapel.

No single glass of wine for inspiration? No wonder I'm not prolific. :)