which card means sexual activity for you?

Barleywine

Of course they do (the modern accretions, that is). They seem to be a natural outgrowth of humanity's insatiable curiosity and our need to build layers of meaning and correspondences that remain abreast of our increasingly complex lifestyles. Not that we're under any compulsion to accept such innovations in our own readings (no matter how large a sea of affirmatively-nodding heads we see) - and some of those cognitive leaps are quite a stretch for the ol' intuition. THe internet, the telephone, the automobile or the airplane are really just the shifting outer expression of the core meanings, the "wrapper," if you will. For all that it matters, we could still be communicating by smoke signal or semaphore and the card's message would be the same.

andybc

Teheuti said:
Show me a single book throughout history on birching or whipping that doesn't mention or allude to sex!

All the earliest decks show a birch rod lying on a table - similar to what is carried by Krampus to indicate punishment by spanking. I suggest a google image search on "birching."

Mary, I have no desire to start Googling ‘birching’ thank you. I am well aware of birch rods' associations with sex, but I am also aware that birching was widely used as a method of corporal punishment.

In fact, in Europe from the eighteenth century, as you know, birching was the most common judicially imposed in punishment. The area in modern-Germany, that the cards’ developed in, also used it as a favoured judicial punishment. Can you discount that as the more likely implication?

Even if one took the solely solipsistic slant of the Whips reminding you of sexual connotations, how does that jar with the cards’ meaning? Strife in the home, dissension between spouses and sicknesses: it doesn’t go together. In addition the Alemannic name for the card doesn’t mean penis.

The links starts to fall apart. Edited to add - unless we're going down the paraphilia route. In which we open a big can of worms.

You cannot argue that taking the Whips as sex is evolutionary let alone true to the cards’ intention.

Teheuti

andybc said:
In fact, in Europe from the eighteenth century, as you know, birching was the most common judicially imposed in punishment. The area in modern-Germany, that the cards’ developed in, also used it as a favoured judicial punishment. Can you discount that as the more likely implication?

That's actually my point and why I suggested googling the images - better yet, look only at the 18th and 19th century illustrations you find there. It was used as punishment, teaching (”the hard way”), and sexual titillation - all with a kind of suggestive, violent, dominance theme. If we look at just the pictures and read between the lines, then "dissension in the home" was often caused by sexual tensions and a man was allowed to beat his wife who would not fulfill her "duties." It was not unusual for family "sickness" in Victorian England to be caused by a man bringing home venereal disease - although rarely did a doctor let a wife know the true cause of her illness or that of her children. I would imagine it was much the same in Germany.

"Rute (Birch rod) brings tribulations into the home; also sickness does not stay away. It disturbs the marital bliss and will distress you a great deal." Stralsunder Lenormand.

You cannot argue that taking the Whips as sex is evolutionary let alone true to the cards’ intention.

I can and I do argue NOT that sex is a primary meaning of Birch Rod! - I've never said that. But, that Whips is a very reasonable card to represent certain kinds of sex (kinky or violent) and may very well have been understood this way by readers in the 19th century.

Teheuti

To uphold or transgress social moral or ethical standards is Lilies.

To engage in a heated, physically rambunctious and disturbing physical act (like XXX, non-procreational sex) is Verge, Rute, Roede.

andybc

Teheuti said:
That's actually my point and why I suggested googling the images - better yet, look only at the 18th and 19th century illustrations you find there. It was used as punishment, teaching (”the hard way”), and sexual titillation - all with a kind of suggestive, violent, dominance theme. If we look at just the pictures and read between the lines, then "dissension in the home" was often caused by sexual tensions and a man was expected to punish the wife who would not fulfill her "duties." It was not unusual for family "sickness" in Victorian England to be caused by a man bringing home venereal disease - although rarely did a doctor let a wife know the true cause of her illness or that of her children. I would imagine it was much the same in Germany.

"Rute (Birch rod) brings tribulations into the home; also sickness does not stay away. It disturbs the marital bliss and will distress you a great deal." Stralsunder Lenormand.

I can and I do argue NOT that sex is a primary meaning of Birch Rod! - I've never said that. But, that Whips is a very reasonable card to represent certain kinds of sex (kinky or violent) and may very well have been understood this way by readers in the 19th century.

And it may very well have not been.

Venereal disease (and particularly syphilis) was endemic within the XIX century Europe as a whole. See William Acton's writing. But there is good reason to doubt that the reported numbers were somewhat misleading, and largely reflective of social beliefs within certain classes.

In addition, this really is a selective view on what the dissension between the spouses could be over.

Have you ever read Robert von Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis? It was translated into a mixture of English and Latin in 1903 but was already read and accepted before 1880. He does indeed validate some of your opinions, especially in terms of what is now referred to as paraphilia. But it is worth noting that those same things were viewed at that time as deviances.

Teheuti

andybc said:
Venereal disease (and particularly syphilis) was endemic within the XIX century Europe as a whole.... But there is good reason to doubt that the reported numbers were somewhat misleading, and largely reflective of social beliefs within certain classes.

Exactly my point. It was the social beliefs that would have prevailed when doing a reading.

In addition, this really is a selective view on what the dissension between the spouses could be over.

As I've said before and will say again. I don't see the main meaning of Birch Rod to be sex! Rather it is a secondary or even tertiary meaning that may come up when relevant to the circumstances. For me, discord, arguments, dissention is the main meaning. I'm also not one who immediately sees Birch Rod as repetition (a tertiary meaning) or as dancing or handwriting (I'm not so sure about those).

Have you ever read Robert von Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis?

No - not the original. I've read about it, but not the actual work itself.

“While the Christians in the pre-Victorian era were content with restricting sex to marriage, Victorians were concerned with how best to harness sex and rechannel it to loftier ends. For Victorians a moral man abstained from sex outside of marriage and was highly selective and considerate in sexual expression within marriage. And a moral woman endured these sporadic ordeals and did nothing to encourage them. Pleasure was not an appropriate goal for either sex, but especially not so for a woman.” (Fundamentals of Human Sexuality, p. 483, quoted at http://sexualitythroughouttheages.worpresscom/adultery) i.e., Lilies.
The actuality was probably somewhat at variance with the standards that were socially set.

Teheuti

Look at any list of what causes marital dissension and usually sex or sex-and-intimacy is the number 2 item (#1 is money).

Here's a typical list of the top five:
1. Finances
2. Sex-and-Intimacy
3. Communication
4. Friends and Family
5. Children
Also add personality (selfishness, etc.) and addiction/abuse problems.

Here are some of the oldest meanings of Birch Rod:
1850: "means discord in the family, domestic sorrows, dissension, fever or extended illness. Streerath: Worries and strife. Droesbeke: conflicts; disturbances. Belgian(1865): indicates disagreement in the family, that you have to deal with, grief in your house, discord in the marriage, long-term illness. CartaMundi: "The rod never announces joy, just annoyance at the home fire, illness or even discord is what mostly will transpire."

I see Whips as a positive sexual encounter only if all the surrounding cards are positive and emphasize pleasure and romance. I might characterize it as "sparks will fly" or a strong sexual attraction.

andybc

Teheuti said:
Exactly my point. It was the social beliefs that would have prevailed when doing a reading.

It’s not that I don’t agree with you on this, but I have to say, I do worry we’re second guessing people’s views. There is no primary source or even a second to justify the link in terms of Petit Lenormand, so it’s purely conjecture.

The only primary source for the Lenormand is the PL sheet. Stralsunder et cetera. are, to the best of my knowledge, secondary sources.

As I've said before and will say again. I don't see the main meaning of Birch Rod to be sex! Rather it is a secondary or even tertiary meaning that may come up when relevant to the circumstances. For me, discord, arguments, dissention is the main meaning. I'm also not one who immediately sees Birch Rod as repetition (a tertiary meaning) or as dancing or handwriting (I'm not so sure about those).

I’ve said before that I don’t dismiss the Whips being an actual whip or even BDSM, in certain circumstances. But for it to be BDSM in a reading, it would have to be chained between significator or with the Lilies et cetera.

Petit Lenormand is blunt. It calls a spade a spade, and the idea that the cards’ would have individual cards for aggressive/recreational sex loving/relationship sex just seems at odds with the cards’ pithy, decisive brusque voice.

It also seems to me to be betray modern didactic mind-set.

No - not the original. I've read about it, but not the actual work itself.

You're not missing much. I'm going through as I'm doing commissioned research, but it's interesting in terms of the XIX century moral-influenced medicine.

“While the Christians in the pre-Victorian era were content with restricting sex to marriage, Victorians were concerned with how best to harness sex and rechannel it to loftier ends. For Victorians a moral man abstained from sex outside of marriage and was highly selective and considerate in sexual expression within marriage. And a moral woman endured these sporadic ordeals and did nothing to encourage them. Pleasure was not an appropriate goal for either sex, but especially not so for a woman.” (Fundamentals of Human Sexuality, p. 483, quoted at http://sexualitythroughouttheages.worpresscom/adultery) i.e., Lilies.
The actuality was probably somewhat at variance with the standards that were socially set.

I don't disagree with that. But if you look Michel Foucault, and then the writings of Krafft-Ebing (even Bernard Shaw and Gladstone and various social reformers in Germany, France, England) you will start to see that what was said wasn't always reflective of what was going on in society. You might enjoy the writings of Jan Marsh, Ian Gibson, Deb Lutz and Robin O'Dell who give quite impartial looks at Victorian social beliefs.

Barleywine

Teheuti said:
Look at any list of what causes marital dissension and usually sex or sex-and-intimacy is the number 2 item (#1 is money).

Here's a typical list of the top five:
1. Finances
2. Sex-and-Intimacy
3. Communication
4. Friends and Family
5. Children
Also add personality (selfishness, etc.) and addiction/abuse problems.

Here are some of the oldest meanings of Birch Rod:
1850: "means discord in the family, domestic sorrows, dissension, fever or extended illness. Streerath: Worries and strife. Droesbeke: conflicts; disturbances. Belgian(1865): indicates disagreement in the family, that you have to deal with, grief in your house, discord in the marriage, long-term illness. CartaMundi: "The rod never announces joy, just annoyance at the home fire, illness or even discord is what mostly will transpire."

I see Whips as a positive sexual encounter only if all the surrounding cards are positive and emphasize pleasure and romance. I might characterize it as "sparks will fly" or a strong sexual attraction.

Some years ago, a study was done which showed that sexual relations are the last thing to go sour in a failing marriage. I'm curious what you and Andy think of the other modern connection of the Whip to undifferentiated physical activity. If you will permit me another astrological analogy, it reminds me of the "Mars" energy, which really doesn't become "sex" until you tie it together with Venus. Similarly, this definition of the Whip would seem to need a partner to mean anything other than an undirected force. Some of the combos I've seen are: Whip + Heart = passionate activity; Whip + Bouquet = pleasurable activity; Whip + Moon = sexual seduction.

andybc

Barleywine said:
Some years ago, a study was done which showed that sexual relations are the last thing to go sour in a failing marriage. I'm curious what you and Andy think of the other modern connection of the Whip to undifferentiated physical activity. If you will permit me another astrological analogy, it reminds me of the "Mars" energy, which really doesn't become "sex" until you tie it together with Venus. Similarly, this definition of the Whip would seem to need a partner to mean anything other than an undirected force. Some of the combos I've seen are: Whip + Heart = passionate activity; Whip + Bouquet = pleasurable activity; Whip + Moon = sexual seduction.

I’ve never seen those combinations myself, and they’re not how I would read personally.

For me, the Whips is primarily about tensions and disagreements. So when it’s with the Heart the strife will be something to do with feelings, quarrels that despoil harmony, something that (literally, sometimes) causes your blood pressure to go through the roof. With the Bouquet it would tend to be atmospheric: snipping over dinner, bad atmospheres, but also it can be bad manners and etiquette.

The Moon one puzzles me, personally. The Moon is about honours and recognition, so with the Whips it could be slander, arguing over “position”, or a spat between famous people. As the Moon is one of the employment cards, it could be colleagues fighting, having to take out a grievance.

Context will always be the denominator. But the Whips is a despoiling factor, like most of the Acorns cards.

I tend to avoid trying to bring astrology into it. But you’re not far off how I see the Whips, in the sense of an undignified Mars. In a GT the Whips is often one of several cards you would look to see what you can expect to upset you, or course you problems.