Pamela Colman Smith and the Fool card

Dakota

Hello to all!

I searched on the Forums but did not see this question anywhere. I recently heard that Waite and Pamela Colman Smith disagreed on one of the cards in the deck they were designing, so much so that she refused to put her signature initials on that card. The Fool is the only card where I have not been able to find her initials, so is the story true and is the Fool the card they disagreed on? What was the disagreement?

Any light on the subject would be welcome! TIA!!
 

Vincent

Re: Pamela Coleman Smith and the Fool card

Dakota said:
Hello to all!

I searched on the Forums but did not see this question anywhere. I recently heard that Waite and Pamela Coleman Smith disagreed on one of the cards in the deck they were designing, so much so that she refused to put her signature initials on that card. The Fool is the only card where I have not been able to find her initials, so is the story true and is the Fool the card they disagreed on? What was the disagreement?

Any light on the subject would be welcome! TIA!!
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It sounds as if someone is inventing facts to account for the apparent lack of a signature on the Fool.

It may be that any signature from the original paintings was lost in the printing process. There are quite a few variations between cards, in the various print editions since 1910.

Do you know the source of this story?



Vincent
 

Dakota

Sounds like it might just be a Tarot "urban legend" then. I heard the story from an acquaintance who is interested in tarot, I don't remember if she said where she had heard it.

Thanks for the information! If the experts on RWS don't mention it then it probably is apocryphal.
 

Moongold

There is a chapter on Pamela Colman Smith in Kaplan's Encyclopadia of Tarot Volume III.

Therein Kaplan suggests that Waite was quite rigorous in his ideas for the major Arcana but generally left the pips to Ms Smith. Kaplan also comments that Pamela's influence on the Majors was far greater than has been generally acknowledged.

There purportedly swere strong resemblances between the Fool in the WCS and the Fool in an earlier deck, the Sola Busca and it may be that Smith drew inspiration from this.

Moongold
 

Goldberry

I you look just above the 'L' and very slightly right, there is a patch of shading on the rock which appears to be made up of some curved lines, which may be her signature, as the other marks on the rocks are straight lines.
 

Dakota

Thanks for the input, Moongold and Goldberry!

I put The Fool under my magnifying glass (the one I borrowed for studying the Medieval Scapini deck) and I can see that area but not find a recognizable signature in it. Interesting puzzle...........

:D
 

Vincent

Moongold said:
There is a chapter on Pamela Colman Smith in Kaplan's Encyclopadia of Tarot Volume III.

Therein Kaplan suggests that Waite was quite rigorous in his ideas for the major Arcana but generally left the pips to Ms Smith. Kaplan also comments that Pamela's influence on the Majors was far greater than has been generally acknowledged.
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Kaplan certainly suggests this, but there is no real evidence of it. It has been a hot debate between Tarot scholars for some time.

Moongold said:
There purportedly swere strong resemblances between the Fool in the WCS and the Fool in an earlier deck, the Sola Busca and it may be that Smith drew inspiration from this.
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There is definitely a strong resemblance in some of the cards, such as in the Three of Swords, and the Ten of Wands, but I can't see much in the Fools, apart from the Zero, that is.


Vincent
 

cartarum

hmmm.

i think that the difference of opinion was whether to make the dog hold the hero back, or the current rws fool and dog.
waite seemed to me to be a very strong willed individual. any argument that he entered would be one that he knew he could win. in fact, i think waite was a king of swords.
 
Seven Straight lines on Justice's Scale 9 of cups