The Fool as Christ Spirit

Abrac

Thanks for that explanation. I think the two-tree system you mentioned is the piece I was missing.
 

kwaw

Re: The Drowned Giant. There are two Golden Dawn references, one a pre-1900 typed 'skeletal' description of the cards, and a 6=5 ritual (probably connected with Brodie-Innes), in which reference to the drowned man/giant is described (the usual image of the hanged man should be viewed on its side, the figure is under the sea at the top of which floats Noah's Ark).

For details see here:

https://horusbehdet.wordpress.com/2...f-the-golden-dawn-a-small-part-of-a-solution/

A transcription of the typed skeletal description is available online (transcribed by Tony Fuller).

There is an old Jewish fairytale/legend by Rabbi Eliezar of one Giant, Og, the hapalit (the survivor) who did not drown in the flood. Rabelais refers to it with the Giant Pantagruel whose genealogy extended back before the flood, explaining this was possible as he was descended from the Giant that Noah fed. Rabelais gives a biblical like genealogy of the Giants (...Sarabroth, who begat Faribroth, who begat Hurtaly, a great eaters of sops, who reigned at the time of the Flood).

The tale of Og, the only Giant allowed to survive the flood, is also known in Islam:

quote:
"Abdallah ibn 'Umar al-Baidawi, writing in the 13th century, explains that in the first of its three levels wild and domesticated animals were lodged, in the second the human beings, and in the third the birds. On every plank was the name of a prophet. Three missing planks, symbolizing three prophets, were brought from Egypt by Og, son of Anak, the only one of the giants permitted to survive the Flood. The body of Adam was carried in the middle to divide the men from the women. Surah 11:41 says: "And he said, 'Ride ye in it; in the Name of Allah it moves and stays!'"; this was taken to mean that Noah said, "In the Name of Allah!" when he wished the ark to move, and the same when he wished it to stand still." (wikipedia entry).

Of course, the eptiteth of the card is the drowned man/giant, not the one who survived. One of the ungodly that were cleansed from the face of the earth by the flood.

For the symbolism or foreshadowing of the flood and the ark in Christian typology, see for examples here:

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...-of-noahs-ark-foreshadow-in-the-new-testament

and here:

http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/2008/042708AM_TypologyOfArk.html
 

Gofannon

Thanks for that, kwaw. I can see this thread getting out of hand, but in a good way. I never thought of the great flood as a type of baptism.

Jesus and John the Baptist were both "Nazarenes". I was always led to believe that Nazareth was a place, but it turns out there was no such place in biblical times (another Roman red herring). It turns out a "Nazarene" is a Mandaean (Sabian) priest.

From P31 of http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1444088/1/U591390.pdf

"The central cultic rite of the Mandaeans is baptism or “immersion”
(ma§buta, pronounced ma§watta). It is the immersion in the fluid of Life which gives the promise of eternal life to the nisimta “soul”. The rite of
baptism had the esoteric significance of an initiation into the mystery of
gnosis. To the Mandaean water is the medium which most fully expresses the
mystery of being, or of the Being which is semi personified as the ‘Great Life’,
and a river is the equivalent of the heavenly ‘Jordan’ flowing in the world of
light. Thus mia “water” originates in (Life) and conversely — hiia
“Life” originates in water. By performing baptism in the yardina “river” the
Mandaean enters a into laupa “union” with the World of Light. Thus, the
Mandaean is protected from the powers of death, purified from pollution and
defilement and also receives forgiveness for his transgression."

I wonder what the Page of Cups, or his fish, could tell us about this Fool/Hanged Man relationship? His hat, adorned with a zero, is in the shape of the Hebrew letter Mem.
 

kwaw

The 'Giants' wiped out in the flood were the Nephilim (from root n-f-l - fallen) :

genesis 6:4

There were giants (Nephilim) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men (Giborim) which were of old, men of renown.

On another note however, the 6-5 ritual notes:

2nd Ad. "Herein my Frater, you may perceive somewhat of the same symbolism under another and deeper signification than this, since the Hanged Man (under which title you may remember that our Lord was 'hanged upon a Tree') is also entitled the Drowned Giant, and in this likeness may be said to refer to the Adam Kadmon of the Kabbalists- the ideal man who reflects the Image of God, even as thy face was but now reflected in the bowl of water. And herein is a great mystery, for in each of us is submerged that Image, but oftentimes so distorted by the waves of the tempestuous passions that it is unrecognizable, save to the discerning eye of the Adept, whose vocation it is to utter the word of Power: 'Peace; be still.' In the act of Creation, it may be said that the Supreme sacrificed Himself by imposing certain limits; thereby He was thenceforward bound in manifestation, even as the Word conformed to the limitations of Humanity in His Incarnation. Therefore, must we also offer ourselves as a living sacrifice; holy, acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable service. The 22nd Path of Mem is called the Faithful Intelligence, and it is so called because by it, spiritual virtues are increased and all dwellers upon Earth are nearly under its shadow."

Waite in the rituals of the FRC calls the great symbol the Crowned Master, but also the Crowned Titan (which would link in the GD description as Giant - tribes of the Giants after the flood were referred to as Titans).

"The Crowned Titan, who was shewn to you in the Path of MEM, submerged beneath the Waters of Creation and in the deeps within your own nature...,"
 

Gofannon

According to Strong's Concordance, Nephiyl (singular of Nephilim) also refers to the Orion Constellation. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5303&t=KJV


From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)
"The Bible mentions Orion three times, naming it "Kesil" (כסיל, literally - fool). Though, this name perhaps is etymologically connected with "Kislev", the name for the ninth month of the Hebrew calendar (i.e. November–December), which, in turn, may derive from the Hebrew root K-S-L as in the words "kesel, kisla" (כֵּסֶל, כִּסְלָה, hope, positiveness), i.e. hope for winter rains.): Job 9:9 ("He is the maker of the Bear and Orion"), Job 38:31 ("Can you loosen Orion's belt?"), and Amos 5:8 ("He who made the Pleiades and Orion").

In ancient Aram, the constellation was known as Nephîlā′, the Nephilim may have been Orion's descendants."


Orion appears in the sky in November, which would explain why the Hanged Man follows the Justice card. When it appears, it is lying sideways.

See my thread on the Fool as Orion http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=250748

Somewhere I have seen information about the celestial alignment of Orion at Christmas, but I can't quite remember the specifics. It was about Orion representing the soul of Christ, and the Sun the body of Christ. At this time the Sun is at it's lowest point in the sky, Orion is at it's highest and aligned with the Southern Cross (crucified). The Sun stays motionless in the sky for three days at the solstice, at which point a new Sun (Son) is born, eventually to rise from the underworld at Easter. The Hanged Man would mark the entry of Orion into the underworld.
 

Gofannon

Here's another slant on the meaning of "Christ":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZxzAaHrpPM&list=PL4t9MRzr8Ee6_yvhRZAB1kEePAi5FeShc&index=20

I would highly recommend watching this guy's playlist on the "Shroud of Turin".

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4t9MRzr8Ee6_yvhRZAB1kEePAi5FeShc

In summary, he puts forward a good argument that the image on the Shroud of Turin(Mandylion, Image of Edessa, etc.) is that of Simon bar Giora, AKA Simon Magus, Simon of Cyrene, Simon Peter, etc., who is possibly the real Jesus. The Shroud is therefore the risen Christ.

I was a few episodes into this when I was gobsmacked at the possibility that this story was depicted in the Tarot. The Magus = Simon Magus, Heirophant = Simon Peter, Hanged Man = Simon Peter. The World depicts the shroud, which makes sense, as it is the perfected being, and the final card of the Major Arcana, the Magus being the first.

This would also confirm a Gnostic Christian origin of the cards, although I believe the knowledge goes back a lot further. Simon Magus is known as a father of Gnostism.

Now if we look to the paths on the FRC Tree, on the Pillar of Severity there is the Hanged Man and the Fool, and on the Pillar of Mercy there is the Heirophant and the Magus. So is this showing the Magus on one pillar, and the shroud on the other? The solar Magus and his reflected lunar image(krst)? The World card is also at the base of the central pillar at path 32.

BTW, Edessa is near Haran, a Mandaean stronghold in Biblical times.
 

Abrac

The way you're looking at the FRC tree is basically the way I see it. The right pillar is external and the left is internal.

The Hierophant represents the custodians of morality for humanity at large; the Drowned Man represents the Divine Immanent in creation. Above them, the Magician is a keeper of the Mysteries on a higher level; now it's more personal but still external. The Fool is the Divine Immanent on a personal or individual level.

A little different take but similar in principle.
 

Gofannon

Thanks Abrac, that's a clear and concise way of putting it.

I was just thinking a little more on the FRC tree and the Simon Magus story. On paths 30 and 31 there is the Star and the Tower respectively, so Venus and Mars amongst other meanings. The Star being the "bringer of light" for the solar side. I was trying to fit the Tower in to the Simon story, then I remembered how he met his death: "Like kings of other countries Simon was displayed during the triumphal procession. Judged a rebel and a traitor by the Romans, he was executed by being thrown to his death from the Tarpeian Rock near the Temple of Jupiter" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Giora

James the Just met a similar fate, both deaths were recorded by Josephus.

This doesn't take away any other meanings of the cards.
 

smw

The Hanged Man makes me think of baptism, by water on one pillar and by fire on the other

I hope you don't mind me nipping in here with a thought on this fascinating thread. I was wondering about this

Matthew 3:11. (kJV) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

The passage overall seems to suggest 'two stages' of baptism, water being possible with a lower level of authority by John the Baptist before the more rigorous (and final?) baptism of fire from the higher.

I'm not familiar with the FRC tree, maybe another parallel somehow... the hanged man (water baptism followed by The Fool, Fire)
 

bluelagune

Just a note in regards to Christianity. Christ cannot have a "spirit". The definition of Christ is a BODY. He is nothing but a representation of God in "human form"... in other words: God, spirit, the body (ie: Christ) are one. You ever heared people say: "In the name of the father, the son and the holly spirit"... it is separated for us to understand but it is ONE. So if you do consider "fool as Christ's spirit" that means fool is just a 1/3 or the phisical representation of God.