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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Ok so review from the last day


Questions:

[A]How can a planet be classified into 'rising' or 'setting' in the Valens scheme, unless they are near the Eastern/Western horizons at moment for which the chart is made? Valens asks us to see if a planet is rising or setting. Most or all planets could be neither rising nor setting?

[B] In the rule above Valens examines the first and third triplicity lords. In the following paragraphs he seems to reccomend examining all 3

e.g: "If the Sun is found in Taurus, Virgo, or Capricorn (for day births), it will be
necessary to investigate first how Venus is configured, second the Moon, and
third Mars, and to see what stars they have in aspect. In the same way."

How to reconcile this?

[1] I am using my horoscope, not because I think it is a great or illustrative one, but because I can confirm or deny any events predicted by this system.
You've got the main guts of the story, so far. On your second question, you're interpreting Valens as being inconsistent by taking the terms 'helper' to mean the third Trigon ruler and then taking the term 'succesor' to be this same third Trigon ruler. But Valens has been quite clear in his section on the Triangles, that for the Aries/Leo/Sagittarius triplicity by day, the Sun is the first ruler and Jupiter is his succesor (not Saturn). And later on in his next section on the Distinguishing Characteristics he's quite clear that the primary ruler by Sect in to be considered for the first part of life and the Successor for the second part of life. So with Sun in Sagittarius in a Day chart, the Sun rules the first part of life, and then Jupiter rules the second. Saturn is not irrelevant, it contributes to both part of life.

On your first question, by rising or setting Valens is referring to the phase relationship with the Sun. Thus a rising planet is one which has just completed its helical rising and can now be seen in the sky. The opposite is its helical setting when it sets into the Sun and can no longer be seen. Between the helical setting and the helical rising the Sun is under the beams. This is usually seen as a debility, especially in the medieval period and later by Lilly but the Hellenistic authors allow a planet in one of it's own rulerships (Domicile, Exaltation, Trigon, Confines or Decan) to be seen as 'being in its chariot'. That's not a war chariot but one with a canopy to shield the occupant from the Sun. So the planet in its chariot is shielded from the debility of being under the beams. There's no remnant of this idea by the time of Lilly, so you won't find it in horary.

Rising and setting are joined by stations Retrograde and Direct as the othe important phase points in relation to the Sun (called phasis). Any planet that undergoes a phasis change within (from memory) 14 days either side of birth, is significant in the chart and hence the nativity.


Phase points, though are not as important as angularity in determining the quality of life. If both the predominant Trigon ruler of the sect light and its successor are badly placed, it's necessary to turn our attention to the Lot of Fortune and its Lord. The native might be very lucky and offset the poor forecast.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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So if I understand you correctly,


given (say) Sagittarius, the primary Triplicity Lord is the Sun, the 'successor' is Jupiter and the 'helper' is also Jupiter? Ok in which case the paragraph makes sense. I assumed that the third triplicity Lord had the role of 'helper' with the first or second (day or night) ruler taking the primary role.

Hmm I should re read then, but if three words (assistant, helper, successor) refer to the night triplicity lord for day births, and day triplicity lord for night births, then Valens writing makes sense, and he doesn't refer to the third triplicity lord (here Saturn) at all.

The 'chariot' analogy is also very interesting. Wow, never heard that before. (note to self: look into helacal rising and setting)

Ok, I'll re read and re analyze.

thank you Minderwiz. As always, very edifying comments.
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Unhappy


Sorry my opening wasn't crystal clear, though I did make the necessary point later on. I think the helper is indeed Saturn but Hellenistic authors took the third Trigon Lord as having an influence throughout life, though subordinate to the ruler of sect and then the successor (out of sect ruler). So even at the beginning of life, that third Trigon Lord needs to be incorporated into analysis.

During the medieval period things changed and life was divided into three with the third Lord taking the final third and having no input to the first two parts, those being ruled by the Trigon Lord of sect (first part) and the out o sect Trigon Lord (second part).
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No worries Minderwiz


minor misunderstandings are to be expected in a medium such as this. If we were discussing this over beer (someday!) this would be a 2 second clarification.

This is my understanding The first (roughly) half of life is judged by the condition (here, angularity, heliacal rising/setting, aspects from malefics/benefics) of the *first* triplicity Lord (of Sun or Moon depending on day or night birth) . So for a day birth with Sun in Sagittarius this would be the Sun

the second half of life is judged likewise, but with the second triplicity lord. For the running example (Sun in Sag, day birth) this would be Jupiter

The third triplicity lord helps/influences the life throughout both these periods. This would be Saturn for day birth with Sun in Sag.

Correct?
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Valens Book 2 Section 3 Summary


To summarize the current knowledge of Valen's use of triplicity lord's condition and its use in judging the general tenor of a nativity (many thanks for Minderwiz for multiple clarifications)

1. Take the sign the sect lord is in

2. List the triplicity lords -primary, secondary, tertiary. These vary with day/night births and mode of sign the sect leader is in

3. The first triplicity lord rules the first half of life

4. The second triplicity lord rules the secondn half of life

5. The third lord assists both these throughout life, but subordinate to them

6. Judge first two triplicity lords by angularity, being in their own triplicities, heliacal rising or setting, and aspects by benefics or malefics.

7. The final 'state' of the lord determines the quality of life. The succession of states of the primary and secondary triplicity lord determines the relative quality of the first and second halves of life. This 'shift' is often triggered by the 'return of the appropriate chronocator' (this last yet to be deciphered)

8. Overall this schema of judgement - angularity + in own triplicity or not + heliacal rising or setting + aspects by benefics or malefics, gives a quick way to rank planets from most benefic to most malevolent in a horoscope. (Valens does not say this. This is just something I tried out on some horoscopes of friends and family, and seems valid. Might not hold universally, we'll see)

9. [NEW ]The harsh aspects of Mars to these lords for day births, and Saturn for night births, debilitates their condition and this reflects in the quality of that half of life

" If, for example, Saturn is found in opposition or in square for night births, it will bring about reversals, ruin, dangers, injuries, and diseases, as well as sluggishness in enterprises.

For day births, Mars causes hot, reckless men, precarious in their activities and in their livelihoods. They experience imprisonment, trials, abuse, cuts,burns, bleeding, and accidents/falls. But if these stars happen to be configured properly, in their own sects, they are actively positive.
"
In spite of this last sentence, Valens later explains that the sect malefic causes trouble even when positive

" For night births, however, if Saturn is configured well and has a relationship
with the house ruler, it will also cause the loss of what was gained, reduction
in rank, and infamy. Let the same considerations be true for Mars: for night
births it grants leadership, generalship, public commands of the masses; for
day births (if Mars is in operative places), it brings about the previously
mentioned circumstances, but it then turns them into reversals, fears, and
oppositions; it makes leadership subject to factionalism and terror. It brings
attacks of enemies and uprisings of the mob, famines and plagues on cities,
assaults, fires, dangerous crises."

10. [NEW] The out of sect malefic can be positive if configured well to triplicity lords, aspects benefics, or is angular. (Saturn for day births, Mars for night births.

11. [NEW] If both the primary and secondary triplicity lords are badly situated, then we need to look at the staus of the Part of Fortune. (details to come)

12 [NEW but]I didn't understand this paragraph at all

"In the same way the benefics will take on the character of malefics whenever they are situated badly as house rulers. If they happen to be at angles while their house ruler just precedes an angle, their ability to do good will be weakened.
In any type [of forecast/nativity] it will be necessary to examine
how the house ruler of the house ruler is situated and what stars it has in
aspect. If the overall house ruler is unfavourably situated, but its ruler
[=ruler of its sign] is configured well, then the native will have help and a
basis of livelihood and rank proportional to the position of the star"

I *think* what is being said is

The benefics will be positive *unless* their triplicity ruler (I'm consistently interpreting 'house ruler' as 'triplicity ruler') are cadent, in which case their ability to do good is reduced. The 'house ruler of the house ruler' is a bit confusing, and it would have been good to have a concrete horoscope here)

This finishes section 3 of Book 2.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
....Valens later explains that the sect malefic causes trouble even when positive

" For night births, however, if Saturn is configured well and has a relationship
with the house ruler, it will also cause the loss of what was gained, reduction
in rank, and infamy. Let the same considerations be true for Mars: for night
births it grants leadership, generalship, public commands of the masses; for
day births (if Mars is in operative places), it brings about the previously
mentioned circumstances, but it then turns them into reversals, fears, and
oppositions; it makes leadership subject to factionalism and terror. It brings
attacks of enemies and uprisings of the mob, famines and plagues on cities,
assaults, fires, dangerous crises."
Valens is actually referring to the Out of Sect Malefic - Saturn in a night chart; Mars in a day chart.

You have a range here from worst to best. The out of sect malefic shows where life will be most difficult, that's followed by the in sect malefic, which is not as bad or even approaching neutral, Sun, Moon and Mercury, which are relatively neutral, the out of sect benefic, which is neutral to rather positive and the in sect benefic, which shows where life is at its best.

In other words, Hellenistic Astrology (and the tradition in general) is not black and white; bad and good. There's shades of grey in between (though possibly not as many as fifty LOL).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
10. [NEW] The out of sect malefic can be positive if configured well to triplicity lords, aspects benefics, or is angular. (Saturn for day births, Mars for night births.
Valens is talking about the malefic of Sect. As you say, Saturn for day births, Mars for night births.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohahMenon
11. [NEW] If both the primary and secondary triplicity lords are badly situated, then we need to look at the staus of the Part of Fortune. (details to come)

12 [NEW but]I didn't understand this paragraph at all

"In the same way the benefics will take on the character of malefics whenever they are situated badly as house rulers. If they happen to be at angles while their house ruler just precedes an angle, their ability to do good will be weakened.
In any type [of forecast/nativity] it will be necessary to examine
how the house ruler of the house ruler is situated and what stars it has in
aspect. If the overall house ruler is unfavourably situated, but its ruler
[=ruler of its sign] is configured well, then the native will have help and a
basis of livelihood and rank proportional to the position of the star"

I *think* what is being said is

The benefics will be positive *unless* their triplicity ruler (I'm consistently interpreting 'house ruler' as 'triplicity ruler') are cadent, in which case their ability to do good is reduced. The 'house ruler of the house ruler' is a bit confusing, and it would have been good to have a concrete horoscope here)

This finishes section 3 of Book 2.
By house ruler Valens means the ruler of the Sign in which Venus or Jupiter is placed. For example Venus in Gemini is in the House of Mercury - so Mercury is its house ruler.

In the same way the benefics will take on the character of malefics whenever they are situated badly as house rulers...

This could mean several things, all of which are consistent with the tradition.

Certainly in the later tradition Jupiter ruling the eighth, or the sixth or the twelfth, is an accidental malefic. And as such it can harm. I'm not sure that's exactly what Valens means but it seems close to it. The benefic Jupiter, is the house ruler of a bad place.

Alternatively he might mean that Jupiter and Venus in the sixth, eighth or twelfth are considerably weakened. That is also true in the later tradition and is true in Hellenistic Astrology. A second alternative could be that Jupiter is in Scorpio in a Day chart - it's ruled by the out of sect malefic, Mars. If Mars itself is badly placed, say in Libra in the sixth place, then Jupiter is weakened even more.

Sadly we don't have Valens here to explain which of these he meant, or whether he meant something different. It's a short sentence and, as the original was in Greek, we are also dependent on the translator (Mark Riley and his knowledge of the Astrology of the time).

If they happen to be at angles while their house ruler just precedes an angle, their ability to do good will be weakened.

He immediately goes on to say that even if they seem to be well placed, things might not actually work out that way. For example Jupiter in the Seventh is angular but if it's in Taurus and Venus is in Gemini (the preceding Sign) Jupiter is weakened because Venus is in the Sixth Place, which is one of the bad places. Venus in any cadent place, would have the same sort of affect. Worse in the sixth or twelfth not as bad in the third and better still in the ninth (though still reducing Jupiter's strength somewhat.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Rewritten Summary of Section 3 incorporating Minderwiz's corrections


Summary of the current knowledge of Valen's use of triplicity lord's condition and its use in judging the general tenor of a nativity (many thanks for Minderwiz for multiple clarifications). Should be useful to people reading those notes/working thru Valens.

The confusing bit is that 'house ruler' is used as triplicity lord in the earlier parts of this section and as domicile lord in the latter parts. Minderwiz has cleared this up above.

1. Take the sign the sect lord is in

2. List the triplicity lords -primary, secondary, tertiary. These vary with day/night births and mode of sign the sect leader is in

3. The first triplicity lord rules the first half of life

4. The second triplicity lord rules the secondn half of life

5. The third lord assists both these throughout life, but subordinate to them

6. Judge first two triplicity lords by angularity, being in their own triplicities, heliacal rising or setting, and aspects by benefics or malefics.

7. The final 'state' of the lord determines the quality of life. The succession of states of the primary and secondary triplicity lord determines the relative quality of the first and second halves of life. This 'shift' is often triggered by the 'return of the appropriate chronocator' (this last yet to be deciphered)

8. Overall this schema of judgement - angularity + in own triplicity or not + heliacal rising or setting + aspects by benefics or malefics, gives a quick way to rank planets from most benefic to most malevolent in a horoscope. (Valens does not say this. This is just something I tried out on some horoscopes of friends and family, and seems valid. Might not hold universally, we'll see)

9. The harsh aspects of out of sect malefics to these lords, Mars for day births, and Saturn for night births, debilitates their condition and this reflects in the quality of that half of life

" If, for example, Saturn is found in opposition or in square for night births, it will bring about reversals, ruin, dangers, injuries, and diseases, as well as sluggishness in enterprises.

For day births, Mars causes hot, reckless men, precarious in their activities and in their livelihoods. They experience imprisonment, trials, abuse, cuts,burns, bleeding, and accidents/falls. But if these stars happen to be configured properly, in their own sects, they are actively positive.
"
The out of sect malefic can cause trouble even when well placed

" For night births, however, if Saturn is configured well and has a relationship
with the house ruler, it will also cause the loss of what was gained, reduction
in rank, and infamy.


For day births (if Mars is in operative places), it brings about the previously
mentioned circumstances, but it then turns them into reversals, fears, and
oppositions; it makes leadership subject to factionalism and terror. It brings
attacks of enemies and uprisings of the mob, famines and plagues on cities,
assaults, fires, dangerous crises."

10. The in sect malefic can be positive if configured well to triplicity lords, aspects benefics, or is angular. (Saturn for day births, Mars for night births.

11. If both the primary and secondary triplicity lords are badly situated, then we need to look at the staus of the Part of Fortune. (details to come)

12. Valens says

"In the same way the benefics will take on the character of malefics whenever they are situated badly as house rulers. If they happen to be at angles while their house ruler just precedes an angle, their ability to do good will be weakened.

In any type [of forecast/nativity] it will be necessary to examine
how the house ruler of the house ruler is situated and what stars it has in
aspect. If the overall house ruler is unfavourably situated, but its ruler
[=ruler of its sign] is configured well, then the native will have help and a
basis of livelihood and rank proportional to the position of the star"


NB: beware the 'house ruler' term here it seems to indicate the domicile ruler. wheras it indicated triplicity ruler in the initial parts of this section

Minderwiz explains

Quote:
You have a range here from worst to best. The out of sect malefic shows where life will be most difficult, that's followed by the in sect malefic, which is not as bad or even approaching neutral, Sun, Moon and Mercury, which are relatively neutral, the out of sect benefic, which is neutral to rather positive and the in sect benefic, which shows where life is at its best.
....


Quote:
By house ruler Valens means the ruler of the Sign in which Venus or Jupiter is placed. For example Venus in Gemini is in the House of Mercury - so Mercury is its house ruler.

In the same way the benefics will take on the character of malefics whenever they are situated badly as house rulers...

This could mean several things, all of which are consistent with the tradition.

Certainly in the later tradition Jupiter ruling the eighth, or the sixth or the twelfth, is an accidental malefic. And as such it can harm. I'm not sure that's exactly what Valens means but it seems close to it. The benefic Jupiter, is the house ruler of a bad place.

Alternatively he might mean that Jupiter and Venus in the sixth, eighth or twelfth are considerably weakened. That is also true in the later tradition and is true in Hellenistic Astrology. A second alternative could be that Jupiter is in Scorpio in a Day chart - it's ruled by the out of sect malefic, Mars. If Mars itself is badly placed, say in Libra in the sixth place, then Jupiter is weakened even more.

Sadly we don't have Valens here to explain which of these he meant, or whether he meant something different. It's a short sentence and, as the original was in Greek, we are also dependent on the translator (Mark Riley and his knowledge of the Astrology of the time).

If they happen to be at angles while their house ruler just precedes an angle, their ability to do good will be weakened.

He immediately goes on to say that even if they seem to be well placed, things might not actually work out that way. For example Jupiter in the Seventh is angular but if it's in Taurus and Venus is in Gemini (the preceding Sign) Jupiter is weakened because Venus is in the Sixth Place, which is one of the bad places. Venus in any cadent place, would have the same sort of affect. Worse in the sixth or twelfth not as bad in the third and better still in the ninth (though still reducing Jupiter's strength somewhat.
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Much clearer now thank you Minderwiz

This finishes section 3 of Book 2.

The next section deals with the Part of Fortune. After learning that, I'll take 2 or 3 horoscopes and run them against the framework delineated above. (+ the PoF material). Nothing like evaluating concrete horoscopes to check understanding.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
The next section deals with the Part of Fortune. After learning that, I'll take 2 or 3 horoscopes and run them against the framework delineated above. (+ the PoF material). Nothing like evaluating concrete horoscopes to check understanding.
Good idea, but remember that Valens hasn't got round to dealing with the Places (and therefore the Lord of the Ascendant). I referred to the Places in my previous post but, to be honest, I had to think whether they should be referred to at that point. My feeling was that Valens had indirectly referred to them, so it was valid to consider them.

So whilst you can have a look at the Triplicity rulers and the Lot of Fortune, (and it's best to keep to Valens' terminology - it's a Lot, not a Part), there's still an awful lot missing (pardon the pun) from a full delineation of a birth chart. So don't expect other than a bare outline of the life progress of the native.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Yes, that (bare outline) only


is understood. I hope to fill it out as my studies of Valens progresses. And since these are close friends and/or family, I can always ask what happened in the period of chronocator X and sub chronocator Y and get honest answers.

And yes, Lot not Part, I understand what you mean by switching terminology, LOL

I am only sad I wasted 2+ years on modern writers and psychobabble astrology before reading Valens (and Lilly, and Morin). This is what I should have done from the very beginning! Aargh.

still, better late than never! I now see light where there was only fog! Thank You for all the valuable-beyond-words clarifications. I would have sunk without a trace without your help!
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Some (mildly) confusing language in Book 2. Section 4


1. Calculation of the Lot of Fortune

e.g: My birth data (day birth) has Asc at 24 Gemini, Moon at 28 Libra and Sun at 26 Sagittiarius

Since the modern (? from Ptolemy? just guessing) 'day birth formula' for PoF calculation is "Ascendant +Moon – Sun" (see http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/fortuna.html) I get 26 Aries as PoF, thus giving Mars as the Lord (http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_fortune_e.htm has the same formula for day births has the same formula for day births)

Using Valens' method

"Next in order, it will be necessary (for day nativities) to count accurately the
distance from the Sun to the Moon, then to measure off in the opposite
direction an equal distance from the Ascendant, and to inspect the resulting
place: which star is its ruler and which star or stars are at this point and all
the square or trine asterisms of this place. "

So for my chart, (24 Gemini Rising)

Sun to Moon distance = 26 Sag to 28 Libra == 58 degrees clockwise (using a modern circular chart)

"measure off in opposite direction an equal distance from the Ascendant" gives 58 degrees **counter** clockwise from the ascendant and so

I get my Lot of Fortune in 22 Leo, with Sun as Lord.

This would seem equivalent to the modern (?) '**night** birth formula '

"Ascendant + Sun – Moon".

Interesting since there is a "(for day nativities)" qualifier in the text.

Did these two formulae flip over the years?

Or maybe I'm just interpreting wrong?

Solar Fire on its default settings does show PoF at 26 Aries for my birth Chart, and not Valens Method's 22 Leo.

2. Then in (the next) section 4 titled "The Star Which Holds the Ascendant or the Lot"

we have language like "If Saturn is allotted the hour or the Lot [of Fortune] and is in the Ascendant, with Mars not in opposition, the native will be fortunate "

I think what this means is something like "if Saturn is the Lord of the Ascendant *or the Lot of Fortune* (or both) and is in the ascendant ... etc" I assume "allotted the hour" is the same as 'lord of the sign rising at birth'.

In other words, having Lord of the Ascendant *or* Lord of the in the first house is good, with the following paragpraphs detailing the effects of having each planet be either Ascendant Lord or Lot of Fortune Lord , and also be in the first house.

Correct?
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