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Study Notes: Valens Anthology

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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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A summary of Valens's treatment of the 9th, 10th, 11th houses


The 11th place - of the Good Daimon.

The general principle seems to be that this is overall a great sign. Benefics in the sign provide great benefits. Even malefics cannot do evil if they are "in conjunction with the Good Daimon".

Hmm does this mean that malefics can't do evil if they are in the 11th sign from ascendant? Or is 'the Good Daimon' a *point* (vs a whole sign) like the Lot of Fortune?

The ruler of the 11th rising, or having many planets aspecting it brings great benefits.

The tenth place - Midheaven

All planets, (both malefics and benefics) "rejoice" (??) if they are in the 10th place. especially the rulers of the Lot of Fortune, ascendant, or Daimon (which I assume, is the Lot of Spirit. This hasn't been introduced properly in the book yet).

"If any of the [benefics] are in it when rising, or if they have contact with the Moon, tyrants and kings are born, governors of districts, men known by name in many places."

Question: the 'they' in 'if they have contact' is a bit confusing.Who has contact with the Moon? The benefics? What does that have to do with the tenth specifically?

The state of the ruler of the 10th is critical. If situated favorably, makes vigorous and successful men. If situated unfavorably, (Valens mentions the ruler setting, or a malefic in conjunction or opposing the 10th) it makes failures as well as sterile or childless men

Ninth Place of the God Sun

If benefics are placed here, and rule the ascendant or Lot of Fortune, then tha native will be religious ("blessed, reverent, or a prophet of the great God") or a religious leader ("will be obeyed like a God")

If benefics aren't there but Mercury is then he'll be a soothsayer (I guess we can generlize to 'interested in the occult and religion)

If malefics are present in this place and rule the ascendant or Lot of Fortune, or if they are in aspect "from the right" [1] the native will be evil/cruel ("sack cities and pillage mercilessly" )

If the Lot of Fortune or Daimon (== Lot of Spirit) happens to be in this place (9th) the native will be involved in many evils and take refuge in temples because of his desires or pains (!!)

[1] The right left thing is a little tricky. I read "from the right" as " to the left" .

I quote Minderwiz's response to an eariler question of mine when I was confused by this problem in Morin

"A preliminary point I can deal with is sinister (left) and dexter (right) aspects. In Hellenistic Astrology, which is the earliest Horoscopic Astrology it was clearly the case that an aspect cast in the direction of signs was stronger than one cast against the direction of signs. Imagine Venus in the tenth in Taurus casting an aspect to Jupiter in Virgo in the second. This aspect goes forward in the direction of signs and, as you look at the chart, that aspect is cast to the left of Venus.

Jupiter also casts a trine to Venus, but as Venus lies to the right of Jupiter, it's not as strong an sspect. So Venus is the stronger planet, ignoring essential dignity (and even stronger if you include it).

This view held right up to the time of Sahl and Masha'allah, both of whom would have said the same. Yet less than 200 years later All Biruni, in virtually a word for word. repetition of Dahl's example reaches the opposite conclusion but without explanation of the change round.

From then on Astrologers followed Al Biruni, as does Morin in these quotes. Personally, I think that at some point betweennSahl and Al Biruni, there was a miscopying (remember manuscripts were just that, hand written, and had to be copied by hand for duplication).
"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
The 11th place - of the Good Daimon.

The general principle seems to be that this is overall a great sign. Benefics in the sign provide great benefits. Even malefics cannot do evil if they are "in conjunction with the Good Daimon".

Hmm does this mean that malefics can't do evil if they are in the 11th sign from ascendant? Or is 'the Good Daimon' a *point* (vs a whole sign) like the Lot of Fortune?

The ruler of the 11th rising, or having many planets aspecting it brings great benefits.
The Good Daimon is the name of the eleventh place, so it refers to the whole of a sign (assuming you are using Whole Sign Houses].

But: Firstly, Care is needed when Valens uses quadrant houses (see Book 3) because the Good Daimon refers to the eleventh place, not a sign as such. So you might find it used to describe the eleventh house in a quadrant system. Valens uses Porphry (indeed he is the first source we have for this quadrant system) but it would hold for any quadrant system.

Secondly, Valens also refers to the Lot of Spirit as the Lot of the Daimon
- a more literal translation. This is a point, and is in many ways the mirror of the Lot of Fortune. You may therefore find him referring to simply Daimon and usually he means the Lot of Spirit, not the Place of the Good Daimon (the eleventh).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
The tenth place - Midheaven

All planets, (both malefics and benefics) "rejoice" (??) if they are in the 10th place. especially the rulers of the Lot of Fortune, ascendant, or Daimon (which I assume, is the Lot of Spirit. This hasn't been introduced properly in the book yet).
The tenth is the second best place to be in the chart, after the Ascendant. Being there is good for any planet, though it doesn't necessarily mean that said planet is good for the native LOL. And yes, you're right, Daimon here is the Lot of Spirit.

"If any of the [benefics] are in it when rising, or if they have contact with the Moon, tyrants and kings are born, governors of districts, men known by name in many places."

Question: the 'they' in 'if they have contact' is a bit confusing.Who has contact with the Moon? The benefics? What does that have to do with the tenth specifically?[/quote]

Yes they refers to the benefics and contact with the Moon is simply that they are in aspect to it. The tenth is the culminating angle, it relates to reputation, advancement and action (and hence it's signification for career). Benefics here, suggest that the the native will establish a good reputation, secure advancement and be a 'person of action' (my phrase). Weaken this Place and you weaken the nativity to a major degree.

Note: The Moon is the intermediary between the Heavens and Earth. A good contact with the Moon from the Benefics, brings the good will of the gods

Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon
Ninth Place of the God Sun

If benefics are placed here, and rule the ascendant or Lot of Fortune, then tha native will be religious ("blessed, reverent, or a prophet of the great God") or a religious leader ("will be obeyed like a God")

If benefics aren't there but Mercury is then he'll be a soothsayer (I guess we can generlize to 'interested in the occult and religion)

If malefics are present in this place and rule the ascendant or Lot of Fortune, or if they are in aspect "from the right" [1] the native will be evil/cruel ("sack cities and pillage mercilessly" )

If the Lot of Fortune or Daimon (== Lot of Spirit) happens to be in this place (9th) the native will be involved in many evils and take refuge in temples because of his desires or pains (!!)

[1] The right left thing is a little tricky. I read "from the right" as " to the left" .

I quote Minderwiz's response to an eariler question of mine when I was confused by this problem in Morin

"A preliminary point I can deal with is sinister (left) and dexter (right) aspects. In Hellenistic Astrology, which is the earliest Horoscopic Astrology it was clearly the case that an aspect cast in the direction of signs was stronger than one cast against the direction of signs. Imagine Venus in the tenth in Taurus casting an aspect to Jupiter in Virgo in the second. This aspect goes forward in the direction of signs and, as you look at the chart, that aspect is cast to the left of Venus.

Jupiter also casts a trine to Venus, but as Venus lies to the right of Jupiter, it's not as strong an sspect. So Venus is the stronger planet, ignoring essential dignity (and even stronger if you include it).

This view held right up to the time of Sahl and Masha'allah, both of whom would have said the same. Yet less than 200 years later All Biruni, in virtually a word for word. repetition of Dahl's example reaches the opposite conclusion but without explanation of the change round.

From then on Astrologers followed Al Biruni, as does Morin in these quotes. Personally, I think that at some point betweennSahl and Al Biruni, there was a miscopying (remember manuscripts were just that, hand written, and had to be copied by hand for duplication).
"
And that also holds for Malefics, indeed especially so. Consider a Day chartt with Mars in Gemini in the tenth and Jupiter in Virgo in the Ascendant. Jupiter is the Benefic of Sect but not only is it in it's Detriment (alienated from home according to the Hellenistic view) but it's squared by Mars from a dominant position (Mars square is cast to its Left, in the direction of signs). Jupiter's benefic effect is more than countered by Mars' malefic effect.

This holds for any square but especially from malefics. You will see it referred to as 'on the tenth' but it simply means that if the chart is rotated, the malefic will be in a tenth house relationship to the planet it squares, which will be in a first house position.

This isn't turning the chart in the horary sense, to derive meanings, it's simply a check to ensure which planet is dominant in a square. The planet that squares in the direction of the signs, will always be the stronger one.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Great Points Minderwiz


i had a bit of brain fog regarding left/right -- dexter/sinister till I remembered your old post.

In my horoscope (Gemini Rising, day birth) I have Mars in Pisces in the 10th and Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 7th, thus forming a square by sign( though not by degree).

So by the logic in your last 3 paragraphs, here Jupiter is the more powerful planet, since it casts the square in the direction of the signs, (and is in its own domicile to boot. Phew! ) But by the same token, Mars does square the ascendant, so there's that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
i had a bit of brain fog regarding left/right -- dexter/sinister till I remembered your old post.

In my horoscope (Gemini Rising, day birth) I have Mars in Pisces in the 10th and Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 7th, thus forming a square by sign( though not by degree).

So by the logic in your last 3 paragraphs, here Jupiter is the more powerful planet, since it casts the square in the direction of the signs, (and is in its own domicile to boot. Phew! ) But by the same token, Mars does square the ascendant, so there's that.
Yes Jupiter will dominate Mars, it would be better still, given that it's Jupiter, if it were a Trine, because then Jupiter would bonify Mars (at least to a significant extent and possibly enough to cancel out most of the harm (that clearly would depend on other factors in the chart, but it's definitely a move in the right direction. The square is still strong though, and Mars' harm will be reduced.

But Mars does afflict the Ascendant, as it casts its rays into the sign, even if there is no planet there (which no modern Astrologer would claim). So the relief from Jupiter's square is very welcome; and certainly worth trading the trine for a square
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Valens on Places 6 7 8 (summary)


Place 8 'of Death'
1. Benefics in the 8th are ineffetual and weak and do not provide their usual benefits
2. If benefics in the 8th rule either the ascendant or lot of fortune they are even more ineffectual.
3. If malefics are in the eighth and rule the lot, the native is a vagrant.
4. If Lot of Fortune falls in this place and malefics are conjunct, the native will be poor and unable (even) to clothe himself
5. If malefics (fall in the 8th and) rule the ascendant, he'll be abject his whole life
6. If Mercury is alone in this house and ruler of Lot of Spirit, the native will be handicapped in speech or illiteratet. (hmm does this extend to other planets and their universal significations?)
The waxing Moon seems to rejoice in this place (!)

Place 7 'of the Descendant'

1. Benefics in this place and ruling the Ascendant or Lot of Fortune indicate good tihngs for the native.
If Mercury alone is in this place, and in his own face, the native will make gains is his old age and be trusted with the affairs of kings (!)
2. If malefics are in this place and their own faces and rule the lot or ascendant,, the native will face ups and downs especially in old age, but will not bein poverty.
If Malefics (in the place) rule the Lot but are not in their own face or sect, the native will have a wretched old age.

Place 6 'of Mars'
Benefics in this place == the native loses whatever he possesses
Sun here + ruling Lot or Ascendant causes the native to be condemned by authorities (!)
and so on for all planets. All have negative results under these circumstances.
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Again Valens tries to give the worst that can happen (or the best). His examples are at the limits or extremes. You judge how far off the limit things actually are when you look at the chart and the actual placements. Are there compensations, are benefics (or malefics) effecting things beneficially (or adversely) What are the rulers of the rulers of these places doing, etc.

But by and large, a planet in the eighth or the sixth is going to signify problems and difficulties, whereas a planet in the ninth or the seventh is going to be more fortunate and more effective. That's common even today, and now you know where it comes from.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Thanks again Minderwiz


I get the dynamic of using extreme examples.

I talked to a Vedic astrologer and apparently it works the same way there . Planet X in House Y with factor Z => the native will be trampled by elephants, bitten by jackals and haunted by demons etc etc

Apparently (in Vedic) these are things at the extreme end of the probability spectrum and written down as such so that they are easy for the student to memorize (Vedic is strong on memorizing) and then in practice they take the **essence** (here something like "trouble and turmoil" and apply it the context of the querent, and tone it down depending on other factors, like the aspects of benefics, which are there in most charts.

Apparently very very occasionally, they actually do run into charts where these extremes manifest and that chart is remembered for decades afterwards!
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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Places 4 and 5 Summary.


Places 4, 5, (Summary)

Place 5
1. If benefics (in this sign) hold (I interpret this as 'rule') the Lot or Ascendant, the native will be great, and a law maker.
2. Venus here (and ruling Lot or Ascendant) is particularly gracious (I suppose this refers to the 5th House being the Joy of Venus, though Valens hasn't spoken of joys etc yet - or if he did, I missed it), especially if it is in its own term and face.

[I suspect this is a generic principle. Planet X in its house of Joy is good news, especially in its own term and face]

3. Any planet in the 5th and ruling the ascendant or lot give the good appropriate to their nature.
4. there is a list of per planet benefits, skipped for now.

Place 4 - Lower Midheaven.
1. If benefics in this place rule the ascendant or Lot, the native will make his living from temples (!! where did temples come from? I thought they were a 9th house matter)
2. If benefics are assigned the Archetypal Lot (yeow! what's this!) and are house rulers at Lower Midheaven (?? does this mean a planet ruling the Archetypal Lot and also located in the 4th? or that the archetypal lot (whatever that is) falls in the 4th?) the native will be given revelations by the Gods and ghostly shapes (!! in modern lingo, this seems to be a pattern for psychic powers?)

2. Mars here and ruling Lot or Ascendant indicates troubled life and/or a self inflicted death.
3. Since this place refers to a good reputation after death and bequests heirs, malefics here negate both.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
I get the dynamic of using extreme examples.

I talked to a Vedic astrologer and apparently it works the same way there . Planet X in House Y with factor Z => the native will be trampled by elephants, bitten by jackals and haunted by demons etc etc

Apparently (in Vedic) these are things at the extreme end of the probability spectrum and written down as such so that they are easy for the student to memorize (Vedic is strong on memorizing) and then in practice they take the **essence** (here something like "trouble and turmoil" and apply it the context of the querent, and tone it down depending on other factors, like the aspects of benefics, which are there in most charts.

Apparently very very occasionally, they actually do run into charts where these extremes manifest and that chart is remembered for decades afterwards!
As it's argued that the use of charts in Vedic Astrology comes from Hellenistic influences, I wonder if that approach is also a Hellenistic import?

Vedic Astrologers usually deny the influence or downplay it but there's considerable evidence that the use of charts and much of their interpretation came from that source.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post
Places 4, 5, (Summary)


Place 4 - Lower Midheaven.
1. If benefics in this place rule the ascendant or Lot, the native will make his living from temples (!! where did temples come from? I thought they were a 9th house matter)
2. If benefics are assigned the Archetypal Lot (yeow! what's this!) and are house rulers at Lower Midheaven (?? does this mean a planet ruling the Archetypal Lot and also located in the 4th? or that the archetypal lot (whatever that is) falls in the 4th?) the native will be given revelations by the Gods and ghostly shapes (!! in modern lingo, this seems to be a pattern for psychic powers?)

2. Mars here and ruling Lot or Ascendant indicates troubled life and/or a self inflicted death.
3. Since this place refers to a good reputation after death and bequests heirs, malefics here negate both.
I take archetypal Lot to mean the Lot of Fortune - that's the fundamental basic Lot, and a principle from which all other Lots are derived. The only other Lot I can think of that might (and I mean might just) fit is the Lot of Basis. This takes the shortest distance between the Lots of Fortune and Spirit and projects it from the Ascendant. It always falls below the horizon, rather like a foundation. It's just possible that this is what is meant.

There are places like this, where either Valens wasn't explicitly clear what he means or the translation is not quite what he meant, or even both. I'm not a Greek scholar, so I have to go with the best I can manage.

Treat this as the Lot of Fortune (possibly with the Lot of Basis as a back up).

Added:

Seems I was right first time with the Lot of Fortune. I've just done some research and found a word by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum, called

The Daimon in Hellenistic Astrology: Origins and Influence

She is a recognised authority, doing the translation of Paulus of Alexandria and working with Rob Hand.

I quote from the book:

'The Lot of Fortune is called the archetypal Lot in Valens....while the Lot of Spirit is called the second Lot.'
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