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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Yes I think that is going to be the case with Pluto LOL

However, do you see all 'astronomical' objects as having astrological significance? Because if you don't then presumably you too make the same distinction as Kibeth but draw the line in a different place (and I wouldn't argue with that).

If you do make the distinction, I'd be interested in your reasoning, because you've clearly thought about this and if you don't then how do you manage chart interpretation?
Top   #41
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Cool


I personally dont see all astronomical objects as having astrological significance,(crikey i would need one heck of a big chart if I did lol)


blessings

crystal dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapienza
This is interesting. I am now beginning to wonder how much my understanding of Scorpio is based on what I have learnt studying modern astrology where Scorpio is ruled by Pluto. Would this also be the same for Aquarius and Pisces? This journey into traditional astrology certainly pulls the rug out from under you. It's like being a beginner all over again.....scary, but very exciting.
This is a fascinating thread - and Sapienza, I've trod the same path as you have. I now can't in any way associate Pluto, Uranus and Neptune with Scorpio, Aquarius and Pisces (and as a person with 4 planets in Pisces, this mattered to me personally!). The traditional system has taught me a more rigorous analysis of planets and signs - and how to distinguish them. It's also taught me that the rulership of planets that carry the name of a deity cannot be divorced from the myths of that deity. The planet Venus rules beauty, gardening, all kinds of love, seduction, sex, infidelity, promiscuity, prostitution, money, gifts, jewellery, etc. - because the goddess Venus, over time, came to be associated with all of those.

I do still think the outer planets are useful in mundane charts, and generally in charts that show "grand movements in the background", because a body of astrological knowledge has built around them since they were first discovered by astronomers; and as long as the myths associated with the planets are well known and understood. But the way they were assigned as rulers of planets makes no sense, and also diminishes understanding of the traditional ruler planets, as well as of the signs that were assigned to the rulership of outer planets.

Modern understanding of Mars, for instance, has been diminished because some of what was traditionally Martian - such as intensity and power of transformation through destruction and anger - has been re-assigned to Pluto. Likewise, understanding of the sign of Scorpio, the scorpion, has been modified to fit ideas about plutonian energies, which are very different from Martian energies (even though war dispatches many to the Underworld!).

It's important, when using Pluto, to understand the Plutonian/Hades myths, and their relationship with other myths. I often read in astrological texts that Pluto is the transformatory planet, because it's the planet of sex and death.

Pluto/Hades is king of the Underworld. As such he is not the *cause* of death in any way (that would be Mars who rules war, injury and disease, or Saturn who rules old age)- nor is he the one who brings the dead to the Underworld (that is Mercury/Hermes, the psychopomp). Basically, by the time you reach Pluto, you're already dead, already transformed. Pluto's only claim to bringing transformation is in the story of the abduction of Proserpina, who became his Queen. This, btw, also provides the only association between Pluto and sex and fertility. Otherwise, Pluto was seen as ruling over his kingdom of the dead: and during the time when Propserpina is below ground, there is no fertility on Earth (Ceres goes into mourning).

Sex is far better served by two other planets - Venus (for the feminine side of sex) and Jupiter (for the masculine: because Jupiter was incredibly randy and fertile!)

So - deprived of most of its mythical/metaphorical associations with transformation and sex, what is left for Pluto? I suppose it depends on your views of the Underworld - the Ancients were divided on the matter, some seeing it as a dark place of unremitting awfulness, while others imagined the Elysian Fields, a place of eternal joy and sunshine. From this double notion, which were never reconciled in Ancient thought, were derived the Christian ideas about hell and heaven.

Perhaps the only association with transformation that can still be given to Pluto is linked to the idea of reincarnation, which came from Egypt, and slipped into the cosmology of the Greeks and Romans when Pluto/Hades was equated with Osiris (even though the Osirian myths are completely different), and reincarnation was adopted as a possible third possibility - the Underworld, then, being but a transitory place, a testing place between two lives. But Pluto himself remains in the Underworld, and the one who accompanies the soul in transit would be the psychopomp - Hermes/Mercury. Therefore it's a question whether even with that view of cosmology, Pluto rules transformations. If it were Osiris, I would say yes - but not much Osirian "energy" entered into the Hades/Pluto myths and mysteries.

These are problems, I think, when looking at the mythical and metaphorical underpinnings of astrology. A misunderstanding of myth leads to a misunderstanding of a body given the name of a deity. The same could be said, btw, of Neptune. If I hear once more that Neptune rules wishy-washy indistinct thought, imagination and delusion, I'll scream! Neptune was the great god of the sea, of hurricanes and of earthquakes, for crying out loud! Neptune is the greatest force of nature - even Jupiter with his thunder and lightning couldn't best him. Wishy-washy and deceptive he ain't. When you're struck by a hurricane, you know it, and there's precious little imagination involved. (But don't take my word for it - ask Odysseus ) Of course, he also rules the calm and peaceful seas and swift breezes beloved of sailors and merchants. As such, he is changeable. But so is the Moon, who has a much better claim to rule over imagination, deceptiveness, magic and "things-not-being-quite-what-they-seem".


To my mind, the case against Pluto (and Uranus and Neptune), as rulers - and maybe even in astrology more generally - lies more in that fundamental misunderstanding of the myth-planet than in the size of the body, which is pretty irrelevant. This misunderstanding has led to many distortions. Perhaps the only one of the outer planets for which a strong case can be made is Uranus - and that's because it was discovered at a time when astronomers were still classically trained, and though they had abandoned the practice of astrology, still understood a lot about its mythical underpinnings and relationship to astronomy. The planet Uranus rules much of what the god Ouranos - the primordial father-god and creator - rules. Though I am far from convinced that planet makes the right ruler for Aquarius, which is a fixed sign, quite different from the great cosmic agitation of Ouranos.
Top   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
I personally dont see all astronomical objects as having astrological significance,(crikey i would need one heck of a big chart if I did lol)
LOL, that reminds me of a chart a friend once sent me - it was so full of bodies, I could barely see what was happening. There must have been 40 at least!! How it's possible to interpret that, I don't know (he sent it to me to ask for my advice in interpretation. I just told him to junk it and start with the basics - the 7 classical planets - and work from there if he felt the need to).
Top   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
I personally dont see all astronomical objects as having astrological significance,(crikey i would need one heck of a big chart if I did lol)

crystal dawn
The where do you draw the line? Do you just keep to the modern 10 or do you add in Chiron, and some asteroids?

The issue of how we decide what to use is quite an interesting one. When I started out in Astrology I accepted the modern 10 by default (although I must admit to some concerns about 'co-rulership). Perhaps if nothing else this thread might help beginners to think about how and why they decide on which bodies to use.

Fudagazi

That was a really interesting post, and an argument I've not seen before. Like you I think that the only possible candidate from the outer planets is Uranus.

There's an argument that it was observed in Hellenistic times but was thought to be a dim fixed star (and therefore of no or very little Astrological importance) and also it's passage around the zodiac measures a human life time. It's perfectly possible to use Uranus (or any other body) without requiring them to be a sign ruler - through affinity they might well be a ruler of something or other in the same sense as Mars rules the colour red and accidents or Venus rules gambling, though even that is not a necessary requirement. I
Top   #45
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Cool no lines just an open mind


Do you mean chiron the wounded healer or charon the lord of death (plutos moon or as some people describe it co - planet)

I do have a friend that uses one of these but cannot remember which one.
I also have another friend who uses vulcan instead of pluto.

Either way its another subject totally. My original posts were about pluto and how i feel about its place in astrology, which i am happy to share with you.

I will decline to comment on the likes of chiron or charon , which ever you meant, - as we could just go on and on for example -

How do you feel about neptune?
do you use uranus or herchel?
how do you feel about ceres?
whats the capital of australia? (lol)

Also I feel that people out there should be free to find there own system - the basics are there, if people want to just use the basics or build further on them that is fine too. Each system is personal to the user and should be kept that way. If someone has a system thats a little different from ours we should not lambaste that person for not following our way but celebrate that they have found a system that is different from ours, after all variety is the spice of life - (sorry to quote an ole cliche but thought is was relevant)

Everyone has there own system that works for them.

blessings

crystal dawn















aaaawwww poor pluto - rejected by the au and half of the astrologers out there - I still love you.
Top   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystal dawn
Each system is personal to the user and should be kept that way. If someone has a system thats a little different from ours we should not lambaste that person for not following our way but celebrate that they have found a system that is different from ours, after all variety is the spice of life - (sorry to quote an ole cliche but thought is was relevant)

Everyone has there own system that works for them.
That's like saying "everyone has their own maths system that works for them". Astrology might be an art rather than a science, but it's a very precise one, like harmonics or maths. Things have to hang together logically. There are many systems, we might all have our favourite(s) - but to just pick and choose and use elements of this or that system - or no system at all - without rhyme or reason and build up a personal astrology that has no logic or understanding to it is like trying to pick and choose from various maths systems and juggle them.

There's a reason why astrology does evolve: we evolve. I think there is a place for psychological astrology, just as there's a place for magical, predictive, and mundane astrology. There's a case for using many bodies or few, for using the fixed stars or doing without, for incorporating Pluto or not. But the astrologers who make astrology evolve all build on solid ground, on a strong understanding of the existing systems, and not on whim.

You speak a lot about your feelings for Pluto, but you still haven't explained why you think that body makes a good ruler for the sign of Scorpio. Why is the planet named after the chthonic god of the Underworld, of earth and matter, a good ruler for that sign? There might well be a good case for it - but what is it? Like mathematicians, a good astrologer is highly intuitive. But like maths, there is a strong core of coherence and logic behind every system. I can say why I think Mars is the right ruler for Scorpio - how the planet that rules war, aggression, defence, anger, betrayal, punishment, crisis, courage, destruction and self-destruction, urgency, the sex drive and the energy of battle and rivalry is at home in Scorpio, a sign traditionally associated with uncompromising attitudes, to a strong sex drive, given to jealousy and self-destruction as much as to honour, loyalty and bravery, a sign of transformation through crisis, as well as a deeply sensitive and tireless sign, where the bravery, the frontier-breaking and the indomitable warrior character of Mars is welcome and can thrive.
Top   #47
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<grins>

No I wasn't trying to pick an argument on this one and I agree it was a little bit of a digression from the main topic. It was a query made not as a challenge but as a way of exploring how we might begin to make a choice. I didn't have any specific bodies in mind, merely how you approached the issue.

I won't press you any further because you clearly don't want to go there.

On the issue of freedom to choose your own system, I agree with you, with the proviso that a beginner ought to start with a reasonably standard system (and that might well include Pluto) and once they are happy that they understand that system, then they can consider extending, amending and developing their approach. They should also be prepared to challenge the rationale of that system (having learned it) so that they know not only what they are doing but why they are doing it.
Top   #48
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Cool plutonian under attack


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudugazi
That's like saying "everyone has their own maths system that works for them". Astrology might be an art rather than a science, but it's a very precise one, like harmonics or maths. Things have to hang together logically. There are many systems, we might all have our favourite(s) - but to just pick and choose and use elements of this or that system - or no system at all - without rhyme or reason and build up a personal astrology that has no logic or understanding to it is like trying to pick and choose from various maths systems and juggle them.

There's a reason why astrology does evolve: we evolve. I think there is a place for psychological astrology, just as there's a place for magical, predictive, and mundane astrology. There's a case for using many bodies or few, for using the fixed stars or doing without, for incorporating Pluto or not. But the astrologers who make astrology evolve all build on solid ground, on a strong understanding of the existing systems, and not on whim.
You speak a lot about your feelings for Pluto, but you still haven't explained why you think that body makes a good ruler for the sign of Scorpio. Why is the planet named after the chthonic god of the Underworld, of earth and matter, a good ruler for that sign? There might well be a good case for it - but what is it? Like mathematicians, a good astrologer is highly intuitive. But like maths, there is a strong core of coherence and logic behind every system. I can say why I think Mars is the right ruler for Scorpio - how the planet that rules war, aggression, defence, anger, betrayal, punishment, crisis, courage, destruction and self-destruction, urgency, the sex drive and the energy of battle and rivalry is at home in Scorpio, a sign traditionally associated with uncompromising attitudes, to a strong sex drive, given to jealousy and self-destruction as much as to honour, loyalty and bravery, a sign of transformation through crisis, as well as a deeply sensitive and tireless sign, where the bravery, the frontier-breaking and the indomitable warrior character of Mars is welcome and can thrive.
I would say that you have just taken a piece of a paragraph and interepreted it wrongly - here is the full paragraph for you -

(Also I feel that people out there should be free to find there own system - the basics are there, if people want to just use the basics or build further on them that is fine too. Each system is personal to the user and should be kept that way. If someone has a system thats a little different from ours we should not lambaste that person for not following our way but celebrate that they have found a system that is different from ours, after all variety is the spice of life - (sorry to quote an ole cliche but thought is was relevant))

Like i say the basics are there -

your response does seem a little aggressive - so i will decline your invitation to talk about the qualities of pluto at the moment. But lets just say you have to look beyond ancient gods and mythology.


blessings

crystal dawn


aaaawwww poor pluto - rejected by the au and half of the astrologers out there - I still love you.
Top   #49
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ok, for real? just because Science says something, doesen't make it true
I'm gonna say, the population of elephants in the african congo is no longer endangered, in fact, the population has tripled in less than three years!
-true? absolutely not..

lets look at the job description of a scientist
"To observe and report."
Did pluto leave the Solar System?
No? ok, then it must still apply.

I'm not going to kicc pluto's readin out of my chart, when I was born it was scorpio rising, pluto, it's ruler, was in the first house with mars and scorpio, this is signifigant no matter what 'science' has to say about it.
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