Lee
I'll look forward to it. I'm at work too.Diana said:Will get back to your post later (I'm at work right now - yes on a Sunday.).
-- Lee
Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks
-- Lee
Lee
In my list of DM's on page 3 of this thread, I had said that I had to assign a meaning to the suit of Swords of troubles/negativity rather than the more common modern meaning of mental/intellectual concerns. After thinking more on this, I think the Swords meanings in my list of DM's still reflect mental/intellectual concerns, although admittedly with a negative cast. So I've decided to change the Ace of Swords from "Negative energy" to "Mental energy." This could be seen as being similar to the overall message of the Swords suit in the Osho Zen Tarot, i.e. that the mind has a tendency to operate in a way contrary to the best interests of the self.
-- Lee
-- Lee
Rusty Neon
Here are some thoughts. I apologize for the lack of eloquence.
(1) Which One to Ten numerology to use?
(a) Numerology based on the first ten major arcana:
(This is currently the system that I use.)
Pro - The numbers are already there in the majors, so there's a certain draw to using those same numbers in the interpretation of the pips.
Cons:
- This results in the minors being resonant of the major arcana without necessarily adding anything different to the equation. We have VI The Lover and the four sixes, without both the Major Arcanum and the corresponding Minor Arcana having the same base meaning of Choice, Decision. By using a different numerology other than reference to major arcana, the sixes of the pips will not be as repetitive of the Major Arcanum.
- Why are the first ten major arcana more important than the next eleven (other than the fact that there are only ten in the pips series)? This could be solved perhaps by using major arcana I to X for upright pip cards and XI to XX and XXI for the reversed pip cards. But if you read part (b) below, you can see why the first 10 major arcana (rather than all 21) may just be the way to go.
- As Lee points out, there are many possible variations in meanings of the major arcana. Which meanings do we assign to the numbers One to Ten? Do we assign _all_ the meanings of the particular major arcanum or just _certain_ meanings that we deem to be 'core'?
(b) Pythagorean numerology
Pro - In my journey (as evidenced by threads I had started on the Comparative Tarot e-list), I was looking for a more universal numerology than the numerology of the major arcana. I realized that the Pythagorean system was quite varied in terms of interpretations of the numbers and that a great deal of study would be required. I didn't have time to become a neo-Pythagorean. However, the little reading I did, indicated that there was a striking link between the most common meanings of the first ten major arcana and certain Pythagorean meanings of the numbers One to Ten. As you may the ordering of the major arcana has varied over the history of tarot: I suspect that over time, Pythagoreanism could have influenced the number ordering of the major arcana, and that once the number ordering was in fact fixed, some of the various other Pyth meanings for the numbers made their way into the core meanings for the first ten major arcana.
Con - I didn't want the long study needed to learn a system, and I wanted something that could be easily be picked up by other people on e-lists as well. I didn't want to study it in a vacuum.
(c) Folk numerology
Tom Little, in the course of the CompTarot threads, suggested that perhaps a Folk Numerology for the One to Ten should be used, as this is the system of numerology the actual conceivers of the TdM were conversant with. Query: what are those folk numerologies? Can we determine them now, with accuracy?
(d) Numerology based on the Bible
This is also a type of numerology the conceivers of the TdM may have been conversant with.
(e) Numerology based on Cabala/Kabballah/Qabalah ("Cabala")
I don't have a great personal attachment to Cabala, so it may not work for me as a One to Ten numerology system. And, like Pythagoreanism, it could require a great deal of study to be proficient in its application - as using just keywords can be too facile. Wang has some interesting Cabala keywords for One to Ten based on the ten Sephiroth, which suggest that Cabala could help solve the problem of number meaning variety (from the Majors) that I referred to in the second Con in section (a) on Major Arcana numerology. Note that these keywords in themselves are like an aide-mémoire rather than something that can be directly used in the One to Ten correspondences for the pips.
One - Kether - Crown
Two - Chokmah - Wisdom
Three - Binah - Understanding
Four - Chesed - Mercy
Five - Geburah - Strength
Six - Tiphareth - Beauty
Seven - Netzach - Victory
Eight - Hod - Splendor
Nine - Yesod - The Foundation
Ten - Malkuth - The Kingdom
It should be noted that, within the Golden Dawn system, the pip card meanings are not just determined by the duo of Number (corresponding to the 10 Sephiroth) and Suit (4 worlds of the Sephiroth). The third factor is astrological attribution of the card (planet in astrological sign), which factor can change the meaning that the number/suit combination would otherwise have.
(f) RWS "retrofit" numerology -- This numerology, because of its ring of familiarity with RWS imagery and despite its anachromism in relation to the 1760 time period of the Conver TdM, may be attractive and useful to those tarotists who use both the TdM and RWS-based decks and want some linkage between the two decks. Such numerology also addresses the concern in my first con in section (a) about major arcana numerology causing a repetition of themes into the minor arcana.
Two examples:
Rachel Pollack: _Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom_, p. 158
1 - basic quality, root
2 - union
3 - full expression of the element
4 - structure
5 - loss, conflict
6 - communication
7 - victory
8 - movement
9 - compromises, struggle
10 - completion, the need to go beyond
Gail Fairfield: _Choice-Centered Tarot_
1 - Beginning
2 - Affirming
3 - Planning
4 - Manifesting
5 - Adjusting
6 - Cycling
7 - Imagining
8 - Organizing
9 - Integrating
10 - Hesitating
(g) Numerology based on Planets
With ten numbers to fill, it would be nice to use both the 'old' and the 'new' planets. However, if you're concerned about correspondence with the era in which the Tarot de Marseille was designed by Conver, it's important to note the 'new' planets weren't discovered until after 1760. If you don't use 'new' planets, the missing numbers could be filled by things such as North Node and South Node.
(h) Numerology based on Constellations
Oswald Wirth once did a system of correspondences between the major arcana and some leading constellations. (See Papus, _The Tarot of the Bohemians_, p. 249, Astrological Tarot). A quick glance at that list shows 12 zodiac constellations and 10 non-zodiac constellations. Perhaps a list of ten interesting non-zodiac constellations may make sense for matching to the numbers One to Ten.
(2) To use or not to use the pictorial elements of the Tarot de Marseille pips?
To me, yes, the pictorial elements should be used. If you carefully compare the pip cards, you will see subtle design differences as between the various cards and will see patterns of change or similarity. If one chooses to work with the TdM, it's natural (for some people at least) to want to make those design features part of one's interpretation, as those design features are part of what makes the TdM unique from other decks that also have non-fully illustrated pips. If one ignores the pictorial features of the pips and treats them as if they were the One to Ten of a poker deck, then why use the TdM pips at all. However, I appreciate Lee's objective that he wishes to have a system that is transferrable between decks; thus, for people who wish to use the TdM as one deck among several decks within that system, then Lee's ideas could work for such a system.
(3) To use or not to use colour symbolism?
As you may know, there are colour differences in Conver-patterned decks. The four principal colour systems are:
- Conver 1760 (the deck housed at the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris) - reproduced by Héron
- Conver 1760 (the deck housed in a museum in Italy) - reproduced by Lo Scarabeo (Note that the colours thereof differ from the colours of the Bibliothèque nationale version!!)
- Camoin Bicentennial deck (colours used in the 19th century)
- Marteau/Grimaud deck (1930)
Because of the variety of colour systems (and even among Conver 1760 decks), I am hesitant to use any colour symbolism in interpreting the Major and Minor Arcana of the Tarot de Marseille.
** Thanks to Lee and to Diana, for all the food for thought.
(1) Which One to Ten numerology to use?
(a) Numerology based on the first ten major arcana:
(This is currently the system that I use.)
Pro - The numbers are already there in the majors, so there's a certain draw to using those same numbers in the interpretation of the pips.
Cons:
- This results in the minors being resonant of the major arcana without necessarily adding anything different to the equation. We have VI The Lover and the four sixes, without both the Major Arcanum and the corresponding Minor Arcana having the same base meaning of Choice, Decision. By using a different numerology other than reference to major arcana, the sixes of the pips will not be as repetitive of the Major Arcanum.
- Why are the first ten major arcana more important than the next eleven (other than the fact that there are only ten in the pips series)? This could be solved perhaps by using major arcana I to X for upright pip cards and XI to XX and XXI for the reversed pip cards. But if you read part (b) below, you can see why the first 10 major arcana (rather than all 21) may just be the way to go.
- As Lee points out, there are many possible variations in meanings of the major arcana. Which meanings do we assign to the numbers One to Ten? Do we assign _all_ the meanings of the particular major arcanum or just _certain_ meanings that we deem to be 'core'?
(b) Pythagorean numerology
Pro - In my journey (as evidenced by threads I had started on the Comparative Tarot e-list), I was looking for a more universal numerology than the numerology of the major arcana. I realized that the Pythagorean system was quite varied in terms of interpretations of the numbers and that a great deal of study would be required. I didn't have time to become a neo-Pythagorean. However, the little reading I did, indicated that there was a striking link between the most common meanings of the first ten major arcana and certain Pythagorean meanings of the numbers One to Ten. As you may the ordering of the major arcana has varied over the history of tarot: I suspect that over time, Pythagoreanism could have influenced the number ordering of the major arcana, and that once the number ordering was in fact fixed, some of the various other Pyth meanings for the numbers made their way into the core meanings for the first ten major arcana.
Con - I didn't want the long study needed to learn a system, and I wanted something that could be easily be picked up by other people on e-lists as well. I didn't want to study it in a vacuum.
(c) Folk numerology
Tom Little, in the course of the CompTarot threads, suggested that perhaps a Folk Numerology for the One to Ten should be used, as this is the system of numerology the actual conceivers of the TdM were conversant with. Query: what are those folk numerologies? Can we determine them now, with accuracy?
(d) Numerology based on the Bible
This is also a type of numerology the conceivers of the TdM may have been conversant with.
(e) Numerology based on Cabala/Kabballah/Qabalah ("Cabala")
I don't have a great personal attachment to Cabala, so it may not work for me as a One to Ten numerology system. And, like Pythagoreanism, it could require a great deal of study to be proficient in its application - as using just keywords can be too facile. Wang has some interesting Cabala keywords for One to Ten based on the ten Sephiroth, which suggest that Cabala could help solve the problem of number meaning variety (from the Majors) that I referred to in the second Con in section (a) on Major Arcana numerology. Note that these keywords in themselves are like an aide-mémoire rather than something that can be directly used in the One to Ten correspondences for the pips.
One - Kether - Crown
Two - Chokmah - Wisdom
Three - Binah - Understanding
Four - Chesed - Mercy
Five - Geburah - Strength
Six - Tiphareth - Beauty
Seven - Netzach - Victory
Eight - Hod - Splendor
Nine - Yesod - The Foundation
Ten - Malkuth - The Kingdom
It should be noted that, within the Golden Dawn system, the pip card meanings are not just determined by the duo of Number (corresponding to the 10 Sephiroth) and Suit (4 worlds of the Sephiroth). The third factor is astrological attribution of the card (planet in astrological sign), which factor can change the meaning that the number/suit combination would otherwise have.
(f) RWS "retrofit" numerology -- This numerology, because of its ring of familiarity with RWS imagery and despite its anachromism in relation to the 1760 time period of the Conver TdM, may be attractive and useful to those tarotists who use both the TdM and RWS-based decks and want some linkage between the two decks. Such numerology also addresses the concern in my first con in section (a) about major arcana numerology causing a repetition of themes into the minor arcana.
Two examples:
Rachel Pollack: _Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom_, p. 158
1 - basic quality, root
2 - union
3 - full expression of the element
4 - structure
5 - loss, conflict
6 - communication
7 - victory
8 - movement
9 - compromises, struggle
10 - completion, the need to go beyond
Gail Fairfield: _Choice-Centered Tarot_
1 - Beginning
2 - Affirming
3 - Planning
4 - Manifesting
5 - Adjusting
6 - Cycling
7 - Imagining
8 - Organizing
9 - Integrating
10 - Hesitating
(g) Numerology based on Planets
With ten numbers to fill, it would be nice to use both the 'old' and the 'new' planets. However, if you're concerned about correspondence with the era in which the Tarot de Marseille was designed by Conver, it's important to note the 'new' planets weren't discovered until after 1760. If you don't use 'new' planets, the missing numbers could be filled by things such as North Node and South Node.
(h) Numerology based on Constellations
Oswald Wirth once did a system of correspondences between the major arcana and some leading constellations. (See Papus, _The Tarot of the Bohemians_, p. 249, Astrological Tarot). A quick glance at that list shows 12 zodiac constellations and 10 non-zodiac constellations. Perhaps a list of ten interesting non-zodiac constellations may make sense for matching to the numbers One to Ten.
(2) To use or not to use the pictorial elements of the Tarot de Marseille pips?
To me, yes, the pictorial elements should be used. If you carefully compare the pip cards, you will see subtle design differences as between the various cards and will see patterns of change or similarity. If one chooses to work with the TdM, it's natural (for some people at least) to want to make those design features part of one's interpretation, as those design features are part of what makes the TdM unique from other decks that also have non-fully illustrated pips. If one ignores the pictorial features of the pips and treats them as if they were the One to Ten of a poker deck, then why use the TdM pips at all. However, I appreciate Lee's objective that he wishes to have a system that is transferrable between decks; thus, for people who wish to use the TdM as one deck among several decks within that system, then Lee's ideas could work for such a system.
(3) To use or not to use colour symbolism?
As you may know, there are colour differences in Conver-patterned decks. The four principal colour systems are:
- Conver 1760 (the deck housed at the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris) - reproduced by Héron
- Conver 1760 (the deck housed in a museum in Italy) - reproduced by Lo Scarabeo (Note that the colours thereof differ from the colours of the Bibliothèque nationale version!!)
- Camoin Bicentennial deck (colours used in the 19th century)
- Marteau/Grimaud deck (1930)
Because of the variety of colour systems (and even among Conver 1760 decks), I am hesitant to use any colour symbolism in interpreting the Major and Minor Arcana of the Tarot de Marseille.
** Thanks to Lee and to Diana, for all the food for thought.
Lee
Rusty Neon has written a fascinating post...
Some random things:
(1)(c) and (d) (Folk or Bible numerology): The idea of using folk numerology or Bible numerology is intriguing. I'd love to investigate any leads anyone might have on how one would study such things.
(1)(f) (RWS retrofit numerology): Here's Rachel Pollack's numbers from her Shining Tribe Tarot book, which has some differences from her 78 Degrees of Wisdom, and might I suppose be considered her latest word on the subject:
1 - Prime quality of the suit
2 - Duality and resolution (was "union")
3 - Strong expression of the element
4 - Structure
5 - Loss, sorrow, healing
6 - Passion, exploration (was "communication")
7 - Daring, communication (was "victory")
8 - Movement, change
9 - Confronting truth, healing (was "compromises, struggle")
10 - Fullness, completion
For Gail Fairfield's numbers, I'm not sure that they could be categorized as RWS retrofit. I'm not sure what her source is, but I don't think it's RWS or GD, although I suppose it could be.
(1)(g) (Numerology based on planets): I just wanted to mention an author who actually does this -- Robert Wang, in reference to his Jungian Tarot, uses the following astrological system, in which he also relates the planets to the sephiroth:
Suits based on cardinal signs:
Wands = Aries
Cups = Cancer
Swords = Libra
Pentacles = Capricorn
1 - Pluto (Kether)
2 - Uranus (Chokmah)
3 - Neptune (Binah)
4 - Jupiter
5 - Mars
6 - Sun
7 - Venus
8 - Mercury
9 - Moon
10 - Saturn (Malkuth)
So each pip card would be represented by a planet in a sign. For someone conversant in astrology, this could be the way to go, although it would contain several differences from RWS/GD meanings.
(1)(h) (Constellations): I believe the Brotherhood of Light deck and C.C. Zain's books utilize constellations, but I haven't studied them.
(2) (Pictorial elements): The scheme I proposed doesn't necessarily preclude using pictorial elements as an ingredient in the interpretation. I think what I envisioned is, the reader, turning over a pip card, would first think about the suit plus the number, as modified by RWS/GD, and then could certainly feel free to use whatever the pictorial elements suggest, in order to add nuance to the interpretation. This would ensure the desired general continuity of meaning between decks, while still allowing for individual personalities between decks to emerge as a result of the different pictorial elements. The Prediction Tarot, for example, which has extremely plain pips, might be thought of as a particularly taciturn and non-talkative deck.
(3) (Color): I quite agree that color symbolism seems a particularly shaky ground from which to assign divinatory significance, since the presence of two Conver decks from the same time seems to suggest that the colors were only thought of as a decorative element. The same logic, though, might be applied to the pictorial details of the pips (flowers, stems, etc.), so that one wonders if it's appropriate to assign meaningful significances to what may have been simply decorative flourishes. Although it is true that the pictorial details on Marseilles decks have stayed the same through the centuries while the colors have not.
-- Lee
Some random things:
(1)(c) and (d) (Folk or Bible numerology): The idea of using folk numerology or Bible numerology is intriguing. I'd love to investigate any leads anyone might have on how one would study such things.
(1)(f) (RWS retrofit numerology): Here's Rachel Pollack's numbers from her Shining Tribe Tarot book, which has some differences from her 78 Degrees of Wisdom, and might I suppose be considered her latest word on the subject:
1 - Prime quality of the suit
2 - Duality and resolution (was "union")
3 - Strong expression of the element
4 - Structure
5 - Loss, sorrow, healing
6 - Passion, exploration (was "communication")
7 - Daring, communication (was "victory")
8 - Movement, change
9 - Confronting truth, healing (was "compromises, struggle")
10 - Fullness, completion
For Gail Fairfield's numbers, I'm not sure that they could be categorized as RWS retrofit. I'm not sure what her source is, but I don't think it's RWS or GD, although I suppose it could be.
(1)(g) (Numerology based on planets): I just wanted to mention an author who actually does this -- Robert Wang, in reference to his Jungian Tarot, uses the following astrological system, in which he also relates the planets to the sephiroth:
Suits based on cardinal signs:
Wands = Aries
Cups = Cancer
Swords = Libra
Pentacles = Capricorn
1 - Pluto (Kether)
2 - Uranus (Chokmah)
3 - Neptune (Binah)
4 - Jupiter
5 - Mars
6 - Sun
7 - Venus
8 - Mercury
9 - Moon
10 - Saturn (Malkuth)
So each pip card would be represented by a planet in a sign. For someone conversant in astrology, this could be the way to go, although it would contain several differences from RWS/GD meanings.
(1)(h) (Constellations): I believe the Brotherhood of Light deck and C.C. Zain's books utilize constellations, but I haven't studied them.
(2) (Pictorial elements): The scheme I proposed doesn't necessarily preclude using pictorial elements as an ingredient in the interpretation. I think what I envisioned is, the reader, turning over a pip card, would first think about the suit plus the number, as modified by RWS/GD, and then could certainly feel free to use whatever the pictorial elements suggest, in order to add nuance to the interpretation. This would ensure the desired general continuity of meaning between decks, while still allowing for individual personalities between decks to emerge as a result of the different pictorial elements. The Prediction Tarot, for example, which has extremely plain pips, might be thought of as a particularly taciturn and non-talkative deck.
(3) (Color): I quite agree that color symbolism seems a particularly shaky ground from which to assign divinatory significance, since the presence of two Conver decks from the same time seems to suggest that the colors were only thought of as a decorative element. The same logic, though, might be applied to the pictorial details of the pips (flowers, stems, etc.), so that one wonders if it's appropriate to assign meaningful significances to what may have been simply decorative flourishes. Although it is true that the pictorial details on Marseilles decks have stayed the same through the centuries while the colors have not.
-- Lee
Lee
I suppose I sort of accused Diana of dogmatism, but to be fair, I must also point out that in another post in this same thread, she encourages us to experiment for ourselves and to make our own rules, so it may well have been unfair of me to raise the issue of dogmatism.
-- Lee
-- Lee
Moonbow
Lee and Rusty Neon
I've been reading this thread with facination. OK, most of it I dont understand (I'm too honest sometimes!) but keep it coming..... I am also learning very much from you both, and of course Diana. Its good to air views, if everyone agreed there would be no discussion then where would people like me be?
Thanks people
Moonbow*
I've been reading this thread with facination. OK, most of it I dont understand (I'm too honest sometimes!) but keep it coming..... I am also learning very much from you both, and of course Diana. Its good to air views, if everyone agreed there would be no discussion then where would people like me be?
Thanks people
Moonbow*
Rusty Neon
Hi Lee
- Thanks for summarizing Wang's post-GD planetary numerology from his book _Tarot Psychology_, the book for the Jungian Tarot. I had been meaning to mention and list Wang's planetary assignments in my post above, but ran out of steam.
- I haven't read Fairfield's book cover to cover. I note that in the beginning of her book (pp. 31 to 35) she derives her One to Ten numerology from intuitive first principles. However, when she discusses the pips in detail number by number, I get the feeling that the One to Ten numerology she had thus derived was to retrofit the images of RWS and RWS-based decks. For example, at pages 57 to 58:
"The Sevens: Imagining
The images of the Sevens usually indicate someone who's faced with a variety of options. The person is reaching out to grasp these multiple options, wanting to experience as many of them as possible."
- Thanks for summarizing Wang's post-GD planetary numerology from his book _Tarot Psychology_, the book for the Jungian Tarot. I had been meaning to mention and list Wang's planetary assignments in my post above, but ran out of steam.
- I haven't read Fairfield's book cover to cover. I note that in the beginning of her book (pp. 31 to 35) she derives her One to Ten numerology from intuitive first principles. However, when she discusses the pips in detail number by number, I get the feeling that the One to Ten numerology she had thus derived was to retrofit the images of RWS and RWS-based decks. For example, at pages 57 to 58:
"The Sevens: Imagining
The images of the Sevens usually indicate someone who's faced with a variety of options. The person is reaching out to grasp these multiple options, wanting to experience as many of them as possible."
Rusty Neon
Medieval numerology
Thanks Lee !
At one point, I was interested in trying to get a handle on what numerology might have been in the mindset of the educated person of the Middle Ages, the time of the Tarot de Marseille. One book which I bought (and perused but didn't read cover to cover as is my unfortunate habit) and which you may wish to check out is a classic of sorts, first published in 1938 and reprinted by Dover. The book is _Medieval Number Symbolism: Its Sources, Meaning, and Influence on Thought and Expression_ by Vincent Foster Hopper. You can get a pretty good idea of its contents by viewing the index, table of contents, and selected pages of it on amazon.com.
Hopper's book has the following chapters:
- Elementary Number Symbolism
- The Astrological Numbers
- Pythagorean Number Theory
- The Gnostics
- The Early Christian Writers
- Medieval Number Philosophy
- The Beauty of Order -- Dante
- Appendix: Number Symbols of Northern Paganism
Lee said:
Thanks Lee !
At one point, I was interested in trying to get a handle on what numerology might have been in the mindset of the educated person of the Middle Ages, the time of the Tarot de Marseille. One book which I bought (and perused but didn't read cover to cover as is my unfortunate habit) and which you may wish to check out is a classic of sorts, first published in 1938 and reprinted by Dover. The book is _Medieval Number Symbolism: Its Sources, Meaning, and Influence on Thought and Expression_ by Vincent Foster Hopper. You can get a pretty good idea of its contents by viewing the index, table of contents, and selected pages of it on amazon.com.
Hopper's book has the following chapters:
- Elementary Number Symbolism
- The Astrological Numbers
- Pythagorean Number Theory
- The Gnostics
- The Early Christian Writers
- Medieval Number Philosophy
- The Beauty of Order -- Dante
- Appendix: Number Symbols of Northern Paganism
Diana
Lee said:I suppose I sort of accused Diana of dogmatism, but to be fair, I must also point out that in another post in this same thread, she encourages us to experiment for ourselves and to make our own rules, so it may well have been unfair of me to raise the issue of dogmatism.
-- Lee
Lee: I was being dogmatic in the post you referenced. When it comes to the Marseilles, I have that kind of reputation.
Lee
This is true, however she doesn't go on to account for the differences in specific numbers across suits that RWS has. For Fairfield, it's strictly number-plus-suit, and the number always means the same thing regardless of suit. So, for example, the 3 of Swords for Fairfield would mean something like planning a communication or thinking of a plan, rather than sorrow or heartbreak.Rusty Neon said:
Wow, thanks, Rusty Neon, that sounds like a great book! I'm going to Amazon right now to check it out.Rusty Neon said:
-- Lee
