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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Nice work, Kwaw. Thermidor of year X would be in July of 1807. The year started on Sept. 22.

It is hard to know what to make of a few of the bibliographic references; they are way too early, for that publisher; they must refer to the claimed date of original publication. Notably:
Quote:
c.1802 or earlier,Le Petit Oracles des Dames, originally by Gueffier,
and (as you suggest)
Quote:
__* Etteilla, ou manière de se récréer avec un jeu de cartes. Paris, Lesclapart, 1770 in- 12. -- Nouvelle édit. (sons le titre du Petit Ëtieilla) contenant 33 cartes dans un étui avec la manière de s’en servir, et le livre des rêves). Paris, (Gueffier jeune) in-18, 3 fr.
...
Zodiaque (le) mystérieux, oo les Oracles d’Etteilla. Paris, Gueffier jeune. ( Pey tieux), 1772 in-8, 4 fr.
Wicked Pack's first notice of Gueffier jeune is 1820, a reprint of Zodiac Mysterieuse with advertisements of other works, including the 78 cards, engraved and carefully colored, for fr. 6.50. This is on pp. 113-114 of Wicked Pack. They also say, p. 274 note 64, that the book was reissued "some years later" but without further details, other than that the reprint is "126 pp.; 12 mo." For this reprint and the 1820, the Zodiac Mysterieuse was published together in the same book with the 1791 Etteilla ou l'art de tirer les cartes, for which Etteilla himself seems to have written the forward (it is not to be confused with other books with similar titles) (Wicked Pack p. 96).

P. 114 of Wicked Pack mentions Peytieux as "newly established" in 1827, selling the deck with other works for fr. 36 and by itself for fr. 6.0. That is what you have for 1817! The "veuve Gueffier" is mentioned on p. 145 as selling a "Petit Oracle des Dames" in 1807, with an earlier edition by Mme. Finet, but with only 36 cards. On p. 146 we learn that the "classic version" had 42 cards; its designs were borrowed in part from a fortune-telling pack of 1790 and in part from Etteilla's tarot pack. The footnotes are to Depaulis, Les Cartes de la Revoltuion 1984 no. 132 and his Mademoiselle Lenormand, 1989 no. 99.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH View Post
Nice work, Kwaw. Thermidor of year X would be in July of 1807. The year started on Sept. 22.

I was going by wiki, here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermidor

Thermidor An X gives between 20th July to 18 August, 1802.

Generally I get the idea that the republican calendar was not much used after 1805, standard dating appears to be mostly used in references I have seen after then.

I am not sure why you consider 1802 too early for Gueffier?

re: Quérard, those dates are for the original publication. The names of Gueffier & Petieux refer to later booksellers/publishers of the relevant books/games. The dates I give of 1802, 1806, 1817 etc., refer to the earliest mention I can find of the relevant material being available from them.

Quote:
P. 114 of Wicked Pack mentions Peytieux as "newly established" in 1827, selling the deck with other works for fr. 36 and by itself for fr. 6.0. That is what you have for 1817!
Well, I think they have that wrong. Gueffier acquirng that material in 1817 and those prices are also recorded in a pubic notice of a Mutation des Fonds.

Peytieux obtained the rights and stock for two Etteilla related items from Gueffier in February 1823 (it is recorded as an official Mutations des Fonds). By December his offices at 'passage du Cairo' are up for sale. Enticingly his later address is recorded as "chez Peytieux, galerie Delorme, n.11 et 13."

Probably coincidence? (I am thinking of the Type II Etteilla by 'Delorme' at the BnF.)

And he certainly was beyond being 'newly established' in 1827, here is a publication of his from 1789!



Nina, Ou La Folle Par Amour: Comédie En Un Acte, En Prose, Mêlée D'Ariettes
by Benoît-Joseph Marsollier des Vivetières, Nicolas Dalayrac
Peytieux, 1789 - 36 pages

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

'Newly Established' perhaps, in terms of his recent change of address from passage du Cairo to Galerie Delorme.

Re: Mme. Finet

I can only find one record for her in the Cary-Yale collection:

Record ID 688

Country of Manufacture France

Standard N

Suit System French

Type Cartomancy

Catalog Number FRAsheet176

Maker Mme. Finet, rue de l'Arbre Sec No. 26, Paris

Date of Manufacture 1840(circa)

Originator None

Name of Originator None

Title NOUVEL ETEILA

Dimensions
73 x 49 mm. (card); standard cards 11 x 9 mm.; 450 x 327 mm. (sheet).

Stance of Court Cards - Single Figure

Process - Engraving, hand coloration of one sheet.

Back - plain

Borders - Square

Composition of Deck
Two sheets, each: 36 [A, K, Q, J, 10-7], with 4 Consultante cards.

Notes and References
D. Hoffmann and E. Kroppenstedt 1972, pp. 140, 144, nos. 65, 68.


Note re: the address Mme. Finet, rue de l'Arbre Sec No. 26, Paris, it is the same as that for Robert who produced a similar game c.1810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Re: Mme. Finet

I can only find one record for her in the Cary-Yale collection...

Maker Mme. Finet, rue de l'Arbre Sec No. 26, Paris

Date of Manufacture 1840(circa)

Title NOUVEL ETEILA
A search on the (misspelt) name 'Eteila' at the British Museum collection brings up one set of cards (description only, no pictures):

Object types
print (all objects)
playing-card (scope note | all objects)

Materials
pasteboard (all objects)
Techniques
etching (scope note | all objects)
Production person
Print made by Anonymous (all objects)
Production place
Published in France (scope note | all objects)
(Europe,France)
Date
18thC(late)
Schools /Styles
French (all objects)
Description
Complete piquet pack of 36 playing-cards for cartomancy (Etteilla)
Etching, uncoloured
Backs marbled
Late 18th Century

Inscriptions
Inscription Content: The cards, numbered throughout, are all emblematical or fanciful figures with titles including "L'Amour", "Protecteur", etc. There are four cards outside the 32 ordinary suits entitled "consultant Eteila" and "consultant pour la reussite Eteila" (2).


Dimensions
Height: 73 millimetres
Width: 49 millimetres

Curator's comments
The value of each card is indicated by a miniature card in the lower right corner.

And a search on the same misspelling at BnF brings up:

9. Nouvel Eteila ou le petit nécromancien. (Jeu du Consulat.)

From:

TITLE : Le Cabinet des estampes de la Bibliothèque nationale : guide du lecteur et du visiteur, catalogue général et raisonné des collections qui y sont conservées / par Henri Bouchot,... ; table générale par Louis Morand et Mme Hervian
Author : Bouchot, Henri (1849-1906)
Author : Herviant, Mme
Author : Morand, Louis
Publisher : E. Dentu (Paris)
Date of publication : 1895

Anyways - I'm off to bed (have to be up in 5 hours to go to rehearsals -- I am playing the Evil Queen in Panto.)

Iyi geceler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Note re: the address Mme. Finet, rue de l'Arbre Sec No. 26, Paris, it is the same as that for Robert who produced a similar game c.1810
The cards, and same address:

Le Nouvel Eteila, ou le petit Nécromancien, A Paris, chez Robert rue de l'Arbre Sec n.26.

Bibliographie de la France, 1820
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Kwaw wrote
Quote:
Thermidor An X gives between 20th July to 18 August, 1802.
You're right. I meant 1802, but then got my publications mixed up. The mistake occurred to me later, but you had already replied.

Kwaw wrote
Quote:
I am not sure why you consider 1802 too early for Gueffier?
My only reason was DDD, p. 143, who give "about 1800" for the publication by that date for the Mme. Finet's publication of the same work, but with 36 cards instead of 42. But now I read Huck's post on THF, http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...grasset#p11812, referencing, Fleischer, https://books.google.de/books?id=Udh...ancien&f=false, for the year X (as it says at the beginning of the book), I see what you mean.

For "Mme. Finet", DDD give other references for their c. 1800 date (footnote 3, p. 282): Hoffmann & Kroppenstedt, Wahrsagencarte 1972 no. 68; Hoffmann and Dietrich Tarot - Tarock - Tarocchi 1988 no. 105; and Depaulis 1989, nos. 100, 101, and 102.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
The cards, and same address:

Le Nouvel Eteila, ou le petit Nécromancien, A Paris, chez Robert rue de l'Arbre Sec n.26.

Bibliographie de la France, 1820
Yes, interesting. And that book "le petit nécromancien" turns up in Fleischer as published in 1802 Bordeaux, "chez l'auteur, sous le peristile de la Grande Comedie, et a Paris, chez Barba."
(https://books.google.de/books?id=Udh...ancien&f=false). Which was by Grasset, as Huck seems to show on THF (in Paris, although the engraver is in Bordeaux). Well, Mme. Finet and Grasset (maybe alias Robert) have the same publisher; or Finet is another alias.
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Re: 1857 Das Buck Thot

This Prague based seller of antique books and prints etc., had one up for sale sometime ago --

A few pictures of the book and some of the Etteilla Type I engravings in it are still available to see:

http://www.karelkrenek.com/entry_ima...=16347&lang=en

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
* La Veuve Gueffier, who published the deck Le Petit Oracle des dames ou Récréation des curieux c.1807, also published other (non-Etteilla related) projects with Ducessoir & Marchands de Nouveautes.

Ducessoir also published the 82 page Le petit oracle des dames , ou Récréation du curieux... / (par Alliette) - which BnF dates c.1770 - 1820, but I suspect it came out before Gueffier's deck (c.1807).

edited to add: Gueffier's booklet, with 42 coloured cards for Le Petite Oracle Des Dames, is listed in the 1806 Journal General de la Litterature de France.
For the Petit Oracle des Dames there was an older research, starting at Aeclectic and proceeded at another Tarotforum.

I quote from this other Tarotforum (author: Huck).
08 May 2012, 12:06
article Possible author of Petit Oracle des Dames

Quote:
Following is the case:

As "oldest advertisement" for the Petit des Dames (for the moment) we have
inside an announcement content:





I found then these "real announcements":



30 Nivose, an 8 should be 19th of January 1800
... so very short after a new century (19th century) had started. Silvester is always a good time to sell divination decks.



http://books.google.de/books?id=KW4o...rif5gC&f=false
PAGE 115

***************

There's a "Paris, chez l'auteur, rue du Coq-Héron, maison de France" in the text.

The rue Coq-Héron is not very long. Google maps counts 64 meters.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=rue%20...en&sa=N&tab=wl

At ...
Quote:
Journal général de la littérature de France, Volume 2
http://books.google.de/books?id=QwQV...%A9ron&f=false


Nivose an. VII means Dec/Jan 1798/99


... we have a rather similar address with the addition "derrière la Poste aux Lettres".

And we have a name "Grasset St.-Sauveur", which should be this author: Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur ...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques..._Saint-Sauveur
.. who then correctly offers in his works: "Tableaux cosmographiques de l'Europe, l'Asie, l'Afrique et l'Amérique, 1787".
The author was a diplomat (Hungary, Cairo) and this possibly explains his stay in a house called "Maison de France", which possibly also explains the "Poste aux lettres" inside the house.

The name Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur combines with lots of pictures, if one asks google.images ...



... and that makes clear, that the author commissioned these pictures for his literary interests and likely had more than one artists, which realized them for him.

etc.
More at the complete article.
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Hi Huck,

Could you share here the picture of the 1793 Das Buch Thot?
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As you wish ...



... from a Museum in Mainz, Germany. Das Buch Toth, published by the Baumgärtner Verlag, Leipzig 1793
found at:
http://eprints.rclis.org/17240/1/Ott...chsen_nach.pdf

Baumgärtner was only the publisher. There's some suspicion, that this production was related to Hisler, who occasionally cooperated with Etteilla.
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