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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Okay, then it's simply the case ...

1. Petit Oracles des Dames (I guess, as we know it, with 42 cards)
2. Petit Necromancien = the BM-deck, that we know
3. Tarot with 36 cartes "non decoupee" (I interpret "non decoupee" as 36 cards as a sheet, not cut) = unknown object, as a Tarot deck curiously with 36 cards instead of 78, possibly 22 trumps + 14 courts only.
The uncut sheet of 36 cards is of the Nouvel Eteila, ou Petit necromancien. Le Petit Oracle des Dames. I'm sorry to have to keep repeating myself, I don't know how to make it any clearer: It is one item.

As I said in previous post, I have seen an uncut sheet of the 36 cards, and the title Nouvel Eteila, ou Petit necromancien and Le Petit Oracle des Dames is printed upon it.

I have had a response from Thierry Depaulis, who again confirms the BM to be another copy of the NE. He also provides some additional information re: the Robert & Finet versions. Both are from the same plates, but the Robert version does not include the French card insets. So the BM we can confirm is a Finet version, not the Robert. He has also reconsidered his previous dating, and feels the design and engraving was much earlier, c. late 18th century.

He also confirms that the "Jeu divinatoire révolutionnaire" at the BnF is the same deck he had previously referred to as "Jeu politco-divinatoire" (Les cartes de la Révolution, 1989, no. 99).
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As I understand these sentences, it were 3 objects, but not totally secure. And it doesn't change much, if there were only 2.

What do you understand as "French card insets"?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
What do you understand as "French card insets"?
The insets with French suits cards in the bottom right corner of each card.

Re: Pougens & Le Petit Necromancien.

Charles Pougens was publisher of the periodic 'Bibliotheque Francais", Le Petit Necromancien is listed in an 1801 edition - I haven't been able to track down the edition with it on a p.146

Re: the BM NE -- in three NE's in collections I know of, they are uncut sheets, BM is the exception in that the cards have been cut.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
The insets with French suits cards in the bottom right corner of each card.

Re: Pougens & Le Petit Necromancien.

Charles Pougens was publisher of the periodic 'Bibliotheque Francais", Le Petit Necromancien is listed in an 1801 edition - I haven't been able to track down the edition with it on a p.146

Re: the BM NE -- in three NE's in collections I know of, they are uncut sheets, BM is the exception in that the cards have been cut.
Thanks.
btw I'd also not solvable problems with Pougens.
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Thread so long I am also getting a bit lost : a summary of the timeline (incomplete) for the 19th century (where most of the changes have occurred)

c.1800 (or earlier?) – Petit Etteilla (Citoyen St Sauveur: Rue Nicaise, Maison de la Section des Tuileries, Paris)

1800, 19th January – Le Petit Oracle des Dames (chez l’Auteur (St. Sauveur?), rue Coq-Heron (elsewhere – Coqueron), maison de France, et chez Deroy, rue Hautefeuille, No.34)

1801, 13 April – Le Petit Oracle des Dames (chez boulevard Cerutti, No.21 (Gueffier) the rights of which are later (Mutations des Fonds - February 1823) acquired by M. Peytieux, libraire, passage du Caire, n.121, à Paris, from Gueffier jeune).

1804. D’Odoucet publishes vol. 1 of Sciences des signes, ou medecine de l’esprit;

c.1806 or earlier, a Petit Etteilla, by the Widow Gueffier with later editions by Gueffier Jeune.

1806 - D’Odoucet publishes Vol. 2 of Science des signes.
1807 - D’Odoucet publishes Vol. 3 of Science des signes.

1809 - Petit Oracle des Dames (Blocquel and Castiaux)

1817, February, Mutations des Fonds. Gueffier jeune acquires the the remaining few examples of the Book of Thoth, published by Etteilla, consisting of several volumes and a deck of 78 cards with symbolic figures:

Livre du Thot, a 4 in 1 volume.
Du Dictionnaire synonymique du livre de Thot
Du Cours pratique da livre de Thot
Grand Jeu, consisting of 78 cards, with hieroglyphic figures.
price 36-0 (Or the game of cards sold separately, price 9-0)

To be found from the same address :

le Petit Oracle des Dames composed of 42 cards, enclosed in a case with instructions. price 3-0
Le Petit Eteilla, composed of 33 cards, enclosed in a case with instructions, and a book of dreams for the lottery. 3-0
L ‘Introduction à la fortune, ou l’Art de corriger ses défauts à la loterie; avec les Reves, etc. 4-0

1820 – Nouvel Eteila, ou le Petit necromancien. Le Petit Oracle des Dames. (chez Robert, rue de l'Arbre Sec, n° 26. Later, from the same address, with addition of piquet cards in the corners, par Mme. Finet. Some designs after “Jeu divinatoire révolutionnaire” c.1790 which seems to relate to Russian – Ottoman wars, a Russian edition of which was published in Moscow, 1825. There is a Mme. Finet version online at the British Museum site. Depaulis considers the design and engraving much earlier, c. late 18th century.)

1823 M. Peytieux, libraire, passage du Caire, n.121, à Paris, purchases the rights and remaining stock of Le Petit Oracle des Dames & Le Veritable Etteilla from Mr. Gueffier the younger. [Mutations des Fonds]

December 1823 – his [Peytieux] offices are advertised as for sale.
January 1824 - he changes his address to libraire, galerie Delorme
September 1824 - Mutations des Fonds between Gueffier jeune & Peytieux, including the Livre du Thot in four volumes & Du Dictionnaire synonymique du livre de Thot, as well as other titles.

(I am not clear whether Gueffier jeune or Peytieux were involved in publishing reprints of some of these Etteilla titles, or just acquiring and selling remaining original stocks. Either way, last references I can find to either Gueffier jeune or Peytiex selling Etteilla material die out in 1827.)

1826. Pierre Mongie l’aine – From original Etteilla plates, but with astrological signs removed and Egytian/Masonic titles added.

1838
Author: Julia Orsini (Simon Blocquel)
Title: Le Grand Etteilla ou L’Art de Tirer les Cartes,
Publisher : Paris : tous les marchands de nouveautés
Editor: Blocquel – Castiaux
Printer: Blocquel-Castiaux
Bookseller: Delarue (Simon Blocquel’s Brother – in – Law)
With accompanying deck (Etteilla Type II) by Z Lismon (Blocquel-Castiaux)

c. 1841 or earlier:
Le Nouvel Etteilla, ou Moyen infaillible de tirer les cartes et de lire dans l’avenir par l’interpretation des songes. Imprim. de Ducessoir, a Paris. – A Paris, chez les marchands de nouveautes.

Le Petit Oracle des Dames, ou Recreation du curieux. Impr. de Ducessois, a Paris. – A Paris, chez les marchands de nouveautes.

1843. “Jeu de la Princesse” deck appears as book illustrations: A deck appears in 1864, with many titles changed. In 1876, the deck is put out by Charles Watilliaux. The trumps are adjusted to a TdM like order.

1856
Author: Lemarchand, Mlle
Title: Les Récréations de la cartomancie, ou Description pittoresque de chacune des cartes du grand jeu de l'oracle des dames, avec des combinaisons pour expliquer le présent, le passé, l'avenir, par Mlle Lemarchant ["sic"] [Texte imprimé]
Publication : Paris : tous les marchands de nouveautés.
With accompanying deck (Etteilla Type III) published by Delarue (Simon Blocquel’s Brother-in-Law)

1857 Das Buch Thot, Leipzig, with Etteilla Type I cards (a reprint of the 1793 – a German deck very similar to the 1793 is online at the British Museum site)

c.1850 – 1890 – Etteilla Type II – Delorme ?

c. 1860 or earlier:
Author: ?
Title: Le Grand Etteilla ou L’Art de Tirer les Cartes
Publication : Paris : chez tous les marchands de nouveautés.
With accompanying deck (Etteilla Type I) published by (? Similar to those published c. 1880-1890 by H. Pussey and 1890 by Grimaud)
Location: British Museum, with BM library acquisition stamp 1860.
A description of this deck can be found in A Descriptive Catalogue of Playing and Other Cards in the British Museum by Willshire, W. H., which was published in 1876. The deck can also be viewed online at the British Museum's site.

C. 1880-1890 – Etteilla Type I, H. Pussey

1890 - “the company Grimaud increased considerably her catalogue with several divinatory games thanks to the purchase of the companies Pussey then Lequart et Mignot. From the first (company), she borrows the Sybille des Salons, the Jeu de la main and the Grand jeu de Mlle Lenormand; and from the second (company), Le Destin Antique, the Grand and the Petit Etteilla, the Petit oracle des Dames and the Petit Cartomancien.”(I am unaware of L&M ever publishing the Grand Etteilla?)

1890 – Etteilla Type I, (B. P. Grimaud)
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Quote:
c.1800 (or earlier?) – Petit Etteilla (Citoyen St Sauveur: Rue Nicaise, Maison de la Section des Tuileries, Paris)

1800, 19th January – Le Petit Oracle des Dames (chez l’Auteur (St. Sauveur?), rue Coq-Heron (elsewhere – Coqueron), maison de France, et chez Deroy, rue Hautefeuille, No.34)

1801, 13 April – Le Petit Oracle des Dames (chez boulevard Cerutti, No.21 (Gueffier) the rights of which are later (Mutations des Fonds - February 1823) acquired by M. Peytieux, libraire, passage du Caire, n.121, à Paris, from Gueffier jeune).
c.1800 (or earlier?)
Grasset-St.Sauveur used the address Rue Nicaise in 1796, the address Coq-Heron in 1798. If he hadn't two living places, then it's sure, that the Petit Etteilla was made in 1798 or before. Likely one can improve this research by checking his publications, cause he wrote (at least occasionally) the address in the impressum.

1802, Fleischer's note is missing

For the Finet note (late 19th century): It should be mentioned, too. DDD perhaps had another advertising note. You could ask Depaulis about it.

Added:

I found for 1797 a book production, which showed the Coq-Heron address. I found another production from the same year another production, which used Rue Nicaise. So 1797 should be the time, when JGSS moved from Rue Nicaise to the Coq-Heron address.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...0saint-sauveur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
1802, Fleischer's note is missing
I missed out Fleischer 1802 as we now have an earlier reference (1801) for Gueffier.

As for the rest:

Quote:
c.1800 (or earlier?)
Grasset-St.Sauveur used the address Rue Nicaise in 1796, the address Coq-Heron in 1798. If he hadn't two living places, then it's sure, that the Petit Etteilla was made in 1798 or before. Likely one can improve this research by checking his publications, cause he wrote (at least occasionally) the address in the impressum.

Added:

I found for 1797 a book production, which showed the Coq-Heron address. I found another production from the same year another production, which used Rue Nicaise. So 1797 should be the time, when JGSS moved from Rue Nicaise to the Coq-Heron address.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...0saint-sauveur
Have had some correspondence with Depaulis, haven't time now, will go into further detail later but in summary : Your 1797 deduction is correct, and "Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur is certainly the author". Deroy had become Saint-sauver's main publisher, Deroy died in 1801 and his stocks dispersed, in which year Gueffier, as detected earlier, starts publication, so clearly then appears to have obtained the rights.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
I missed out Fleischer 1802 as we now have an earlier reference (1801) for Gueffier.
If not for the deck, for the name "Nouvel Eteila ou etc." it's still the first, I think. Also the both notes to "Horoscope des Dames" and the loterie description are not without worth.

Quote:
Have had some correspondence with Depaulis, haven't time now, will go into further detail later but in summary : Your 1797 deduction is correct, and "Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur is certainly the author". Deroy had become Saint-sauver's main publisher, Deroy died in 1801 and his stocks dispersed, in which year Gueffier, as detected earlier, starts publication, so clearly then appears to have obtained the rights.
Fine ... :-) ... indeed this sounds like a communicative progress.
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Thanks for giving the incomplete outline of a revised timeline for the period that needed revising, Kwaw. That needed doing, considering that it hadn't been done since p. 13 of this thread. I had been trying to update that one as we went, but new information comes in rapidly.

My strongly held belief is that a timeline should include references and links, because people reading it need to see the decks in order to get straight what they are, and know the basis without wading through a lengthy series of posts, including some in other threads (i.e. for the Russian deck). For example, you say that Science des Signes vol. 2 was published in 1806. That needs a reference. I hope you will put these in. We may have to link to images in our own possession for some of these.

Additions:

for the 1800. How many cards?

For the 1801 entry, Schreiber should be included as a reference, even though he says 1802. How many cards?

for 1806, besides the reference for Science des Signes, it should be said that this volume also contains woodblock prints of d'Odoucet's versions of the cards, hand-colored, and links need to be given to those of the pictures that are online.

For 1809. Is that a booklet with the images included on the pages, or also separate deck? I thought it was just a booklet. Also, I have that it is published in Lille and has 42 images, but an unrelated text. On my timeline I neglected to give a reference, unfortunately. It is probably said somewhere in some tarot forum. I distinctly remember seeing images and unrelated text. I need to track it down, unless someone remembers.

Also, it should be said for all these "Petit Oracles des Dames" decks, how many cards there were and its relation to the piquet deck. And what the booklets were, if they can be identified.

1810. “Nouvel Etteilla” or “Petit Necromancien” deck produced by publisher Robert in Paris, 36 cards, with a one-word title on top. Uses 8 of Etteilla’s figures. (DDD p. 144)

1826. The book by Gabrielle de Paban needs to be included, which goes with the Mongie deck. Its section on tarot interpretation is what Grimaud uses as its LWB when it starts publishing the Grand Etteilla I.

For 1838: The book is 212 pages. Place of publication is “chez Delarue, Libraire, Quai des Augustins, 11” in Paris, and “chez Blocquel-Castiaux, editeur” in Lille. The source of the publication information is the book itself, in an ATF member's possession at least in photocopy; a scan should be somewhere in this thread (if not, I can provide it).
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As I said, an incomplete summary, trying to catch up. I will add the others and references as as soon as I have the time.

There is a notice for l’art de tirer des cartes, with a pack of cards (number of cards not given), from Deroy in “le nouveliste litteraire des science et des artes” by Morin, 18th February 1797 here:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt...%20cartes.zoom

Another notice in the Journal de Paris, December 1796:



Tuesday 6 December, 1796 issue, to be exact:



According to the BnF the first edition was in 1796; there was a second edition in 1798.

Second edition


The first edition has a somewhat critical review in he 'Revue encylopedic' 1796:



Some additional information courtesy of Thierry Depaulis (in response to some of my enquiris to him) :

quote:

The first edition of Le Petit Oracle des Dames / Petit Etteilla was published in 1797 as:

Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla, jeu de 42 cartes, avec livret Tableaux mobiles des jeux de fortune, ou l'Art de lire dans l'avenir avec sûreté par le rapprochement des événemens qui démontrent sans réplique l'art chronomancique. A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Nicaise Nr. 513. An cinquième / 1797.
No publisher. (Two copies in private collections)
Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur is certainly the author.
The accompanying booklet hugely draws on Etteilla's "testament": Etteilla, ou l'art de lire dans les cartes, 1791, with the original cartonomancie being substituted for cartomancie.

...

Deroy seems to have taken over Grasset de Saint-Sauveur's publications. He remained Grasset's main publisher, but died in 1801.
His stock was dispersed; Gueffier clearly bought the rights for Le Petit Oracle des Dames.
As a consequence:
(here quoting the summarised timeline above that I sent to him)
1801, 13 April – Le Petit Oracle des Dames (chez boulevard Cerutti, No.21 (Gueffier) the rights of which are later (Mutations des Fonds - February
1823) acquired by M. Peytieux, libraire, passage du Caire, n.121, à Paris, from Gueffier jeune).


Gueffier jeune (i.e. Pierre-Charles-Augustin Gueffier, d. 1803/4), was succeeded by his widow, the Veuve Gueffier, who died in 1809 (a probate inventory is in our Archives Nationales), then by their son Gueffier jeune no. 2 (or Gueffier fils), who bought the remaining stock of Etteilla's books in 1817, as your rightly pointed out, and later (1823) sold Le Petit Oracle des Dames and Le Veritable Etteilla to Philippe-François Peytieux.

end quote from Thierry Depaulis (private email).
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